The New Adventures of Mr Stephen Fry » Topic: Scouts and Atheism

The New Adventures of Mr Stephen Fry » Topic: Scouts and Atheism http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism Just another bbPress community en-US Tue, 18 Jun 2013 22:10:52 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/search.php aranelthemithra on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-290253 Fri, 04 Jan 2013 00:46:09 +0000 aranelthemithra 290253@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ Martin Benson, The term "moon howler" is interesting to me. One of my side projects is to serve as an expert on wolves, with a specific focus on wolf reintroduction and wolves in folklore, for wolf sanctuaries and a wolf organization. What element of a wolf are you trying to evoke by using that term? As it relates to the actual topic at hand in this thread... The Scouts organization was something I participated in for a very short time during my childhood. It was every possible worst experience you can imagine and I look back now and feel I lived in a cliche. Masons, Templars, Illuminati, they make good fiction. Being a member of a gang is a good thing for overall survivability and prosperity. Just ask fish in their school, or gazelle in their herd. Humans are just animals, we like gangs too... the Masons are just another gang. Who really cares what the entry requirements and restrictions are? Don't like it, join a different gang. I think being an illuminati would be a blast - supposedly full of scientist folks! Nitro on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-290015 Thu, 27 Dec 2012 01:50:33 +0000 Nitro 290015@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ Martin, I take some exception to the chaps insistence on being as 'anti' as the anti's. One could say,"Ah, typical Mason. Rather than ACTUALLY addressing the specific points of their critics, (nevermind the rabid 'theorists'), let's just mock them and their characters." Which, in my experience, would be EXACTLY the behavior of a 'good' Mason. Not all critics of the Masons are conspiracy theorists, sorry. Good try though. Also, women do NOT become masons. EVER. There IS an organization called 'Daughters of the Eastern Star' but they are NOT recognized as Freemason's. They are an indirect child association made specifically to keep the wives mouths shut up about the men's private meetings. Sometimes, women/wives ARE allowed to attend the Lodges, but they are NOT the number one priority of any Freemason. Homosexuals, who by nature are in 'opposition to nature' and so in their guidelines, that of man/woman marriage, may not become Freemasons. End of story. Are there probably closeted dudes? Uh, yeah. That's anywhere. We're talking about what Masons believe, what their ideologies demand etc. To attack the critic instead of the criticism, or actual facts, is diversion, not discussion. Martin Benson on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-289153 Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:45:15 +0000 Martin Benson 289153@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ Well, what can I say??? I recently watched a BRILLIANT public presentation by the Master of a lodge about opposition to Masonry and particularly in relation to 'conspiracy theories'. The speaker used a superb expression to describe those people, who in spite of the evidence, still insist on claiming that there is something to freemasonry that simply isn't there. He called them 'The Moon Howlers'. These are the people who believe that everyone (except them) is a Mason who is trying to take over the world. One of the best 'Moon Howler' claims is that a certain T Blair is 'on the square'. Now, I am particularly interested in this one because the date place and time they say he became a Mason was exactly the same time, date and place that I became a Mason and as far as I can remember, I was the only one rolling his trouser leg up on that day!. But then, i did become a Mason at the home of the 'supreme council of the 33rd Degree' - now there's an organisation that gets the moon howlers really howling! <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> P.S. the other day I met a husband and wife and BOTH were masons! How do you work that one out! <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> Frazzy on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-288674 Sun, 04 Nov 2012 03:13:18 +0000 Frazzy 288674@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ It's so sad, surely any worthy god would prefer people just get on with all the good teaching kids stuff and building confidence and all the awesome stuff, and not worry so much about who believes in what.. it's not as if anyone's trying to become an atheist pope. FrysTheLimit on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-288583 Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:02:49 +0000 FrysTheLimit 288583@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ I've just read this with interest re atheism being an issue in Scouting. It certainly is in my neck of the woods. In 'forward thinking' England a couple of years ago our Troup lost a seriously good potential Scout leader simply because he was a Darwinist. Now, as an ex-soldier, he was willing to promise allegiance to Queen and Country but not 'God and the Queen' as stated in the Scout promise. This issue (there should never have been one as this guy had such a lot to offer the Scouts) went through the heirarchy to our District and then to our County levels where it was decreed that as he wouldn't promise to God, he couldn't become a Scout leader. A great loss to all of us in Scouting. Incidently, the powers that be umm'd and ahh'd over my beliefs, or rather what I don't believe in, for a while before they 'graciously' let me become a Scout leader. They were alos happy to let several complete arseh*les become leader simply because they said they believe in God. On a happy note, the Darwinist ex-soldier is now a leader of a very successful Air Cadets Unit. Air Cadets - 1, Scouts - 0 Pookah on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-287913 Thu, 04 Oct 2012 09:39:35 +0000 Pookah 287913@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ I've never really spent so much time thinking about the scouting movement before - all those shorts and toggles. I was asked to leave the Brownies (sort of prep group for girl guides) because I objected to having to pull down the sock I had just darned so that it could be used again. I can't remember if there was a 'sock-darning badge' but I can remember how embarrassed my mother was by my bad behaviour. No doubt that was why I emigrated <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_biggrin.gif" title=":D" class="bb_smilies" /> Shell Pelle_Hamburg on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-287507 Fri, 14 Sep 2012 04:50:28 +0000 Pelle_Hamburg 287507@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ @ Nitro: "Youth led by youth" means that a group of 7-12 year olds are lead by people between ca.16-21 and groups of 12-16 year olds are led by themselves, being of course constantly helped, advised and supervised by people older (16-?). The association I was a member of (or still am a member of - paying but not attending <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":-)" class="bb_smilies" /> ) has "planing groups". Members of these panels are between 18-30. Only in rare cases these people are still leading an own group of younger scouts. First of all because they are in fact considered "too old" for "field duty" but also because at the age of 18/19 they finish school and attend university, in most cases that means they have to leave their hometowns. These planing groups are responsible for "scouting education". In seminars they teach younger scouts (12-15 / 15-17) how to be a responsible leader of a group of younger or same age people. There are lessons in law, peadagogy, first aid and scouting-history / rituals. A possible way through the organisation is: joining with other girls and boys at the age of 7 (young scout), staying in that group with the same, older leader until you are 12/13, becoming a scout then, visit a seminar that will teach you (in a very, very fun way <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":-)" class="bb_smilies" /> ) how to lead your own group of same age scouts, then until the age of 15/16 you will learn to organize the weekly meetings, an older scout still being around all the time but handing over responsibilty more and more, at the age of 15/16/17, depending on your own development, you can visit another seminar in which again in a very fun way you learn how to lead a group of young scouts (age of 7-12). When you have to leave to go to university or apprenticing you are for time reasons obviously out of the weekly meeting in the afternoon, including leading a group on your own but you can join a planing group to organize camps or tours that are attendend by every member of the scout association of the federal state you are living in/are in the planing committee of or help organize seminars - these things take place in the holidays and on weekends. It's a lot to do and to be able to organize of some kind of camps and tours you need people older than 18/21 - to sign certain contracts, book flights, rent cars etc. The concept of the association needs permanent evaluation of it's peadagogy and content in general. There has to be public relations work and fundraising. That's what's done in these planing groups - not leading a small, own group of 10 kids but leading the whole association, being a contact person for every groupleader in your section as well as contact person for public relations! Responsibility / competences are sectored in federal states, each federal state has planing groups for "scouts between 7-12", "scouts between 12-16" and "ranger&rover (16-?)" because every age group has different needs. And there are chairmen. And these people are always over 25, most times doing it for a longer period, some of them are 35. The chairman of the whole association is 39 :-). Don't forget that scout associations are almost always registered associations and need to satisfy legal obligations. These people are scouts who are not involved in the everyday scouting but responsible for financial and legal affairs of the association. As I already wrote I'm still a member of my scout association but not active anymore. There is the saying "once a scout, always a scout". It's different from any other hobby you can pick up as a young person. It is not the everyday sportsclub you join, it's not just something you do then come home from and forget about. You spent a great deal of time with you fellow scouts, who eventually become your clostest friends. You are away from home and your parents earlier and way more often than other kids you age, you take over responsibility for other people at a young age. Having spent three weeks in Pakistan once and having lost half our equipment on day 9 due to a massive cloudburst and following flood I think it's a fair statement that situations you have to overcome and learn to master are not the average problem that you'd propably have if you'd join a rowing team for example. I was in a planing group responsible for all scouts between 7-12 and their groupleaders in Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg & Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (three federal states of Germany). When I was 22, a student at university, I was home on 7 weekends. The rest (45 weekends) I spent on the road, giving seminars, supervising camps, tours, organizing and supervising one great journey to Estonia and of course - touring with my same age fellow scouts. I was privileged, I know that, because Frazzy is right: it's damn expensive. But it made me what I am today, so it was money well spent <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":-)" class="bb_smilies" /> I'm 28 but I know already that when I turn 35 I will still refer to myselve as a scout! It's in my blood and it's actually one of the few things I'm proud of because it does not just happen: you have to really want it and do and give a lot in order to achieve this feeling about yourself. There are whatever guilds of older scouts (30-???) who are still traveling together and are active in other ways. But they don't lead the actual groups of kids or teenagers. I'm not in one of these guilds and I don't think I'll ever be - I'm a scout at heart. <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":-)" class="bb_smilies" /> Frazzy on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-287417 Sat, 08 Sep 2012 00:19:37 +0000 Frazzy 287417@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ I guess it depends on the country? I was temporarily in scouts.. it cost too much to keep going, and I don't recall a big deal being made about the god thing, my sort-of-not-really-long-story-cousins mum was a scout leader and I don't know that she was specifically atheist, but she certainly wasn't religious, and no one ever talked about religion or lack of.. There was something about being true to whatever god we believed in in the oath thing, but other than that, and no one really gave a crap.. and it's pretty easy to be true to a god that isn't. yay, knots. yay camping on a ridiculously steep hill so we all end up sleeping on top of each other. yay begging fake-cousins mummy to sew my badges on coz my mum won't. yay laughing so hard that extremely hot noodles exit via your nose. good times. Also other scout groups will HATE you if you get a ride through a paddock of SCARY cows who WILL NOT LET YOU PASS, on a big inter scout group trek and camping thing. They said 'moo', damn it. how can you argue with that? 1so-Static on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-287391 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 22:13:12 +0000 1so-Static 287391@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ This is really response back to the very first post Some people still live in Medieval England and can't move forward. ...aaaaaahhh well. Nitro on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-287363 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 01:12:19 +0000 Nitro 287363@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ I'm confused. In one paragraph you say there were members over thirty-five and in another that thirty was 'TOO OLD'. I have to admit, and I'm informed by my American thinking I know, that I don't think 'thirty' when I think 'scout' LOL Still, that was an interesting read and I'm glad you put it up. Danke! Pelle_Hamburg on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism/page/2#post-286223 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:39:04 +0000 Pelle_Hamburg 286223@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ Hello, I'm new here, this is my first entry. Greetings to you all. I am female, I was a scout for 15 years and I was a leader of a group of girls and boys (yes, mixed :-)). Any official political and religious comment on behalf of the whole Scouts-Association (for the lack of a better word) was not allowed. The Scouts I joined were a registered association with a non-political and non-religious agenda. Church/Religion is for sundays and lunatics, has nothing to do with what we were doing. There are whatever Scout-associations that are christian. Easily to identify by their names for they put the word "christian" everywhere. Those can also get money from public funds (which I think is wrong) but they have to prove that the money was used for "financing scouting" exclusevly (nobody wants moneybags send to rome). Concerning the political orientation of the members of the association I joined you can say there was a vivid mix of anarchists (those under age 25), liberals (mostly over age 35) and socialdemocrats (the rest of us), so all politically left. Obviously there are differences between english and german scouts. The german scouts movement developed differently from others in the whole world. Not what you might think now...though I feel that it is due to German history that german Scout associations are more concerned about getting it politically, religious and gender-wise right... The first german Scout associations were founded shortly after Baden-Powell invented it in 1907. But there were other movements in Germany that had influence and impact on it. It became a Youth-movement. Today still any Scout association that wants to be taken seriously by the majority of other Scouts in Germany need to define themselves as such. Meaning: when you are 30 - you're TOO OLD! Youth lead by youth. That's the key in it. At least in Germany. In 1933 all Scout associations were disbanded by the Nazis, the Hitlerjugend (Hitler Youth) was founded and everyone was forced into that. In 1945 Scouts were back (at least in the western part of Germany, the Democtratic Republic of Germany -DDR- founded the "Freie Deutsche Jugend" -FDJ- (Free German Youth) and Scouts were forbidden there until 1990 (Reunion of Germany). You see: from my perspective Mr.Fry might accept the badge for it is never a good idea to alienate the enemy <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":-)" class="bb_smilies" /> Walk through their system, make them friends, get them to trust you, then they will listen - then you strike hard and let atheism take over... Nitro on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism#post-286059 Thu, 02 Aug 2012 21:47:40 +0000 Nitro 286059@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ You'd welcome them, just so long as they have no plans on being leaders? Just curious. I'd like to believe that you are amicable and open minded to all those interested in becoming scouts, but in your first few paragraphs it's clear that atheism DOES bar someone from vertical aspirations. If you are not actively trying to get that changed, then you accept it yourself in which case I just wanted to ask you what I have. BTW, I am not nor ever have been involved with Scouting. I can remember a male relative of mine being involved and when his little sister expressed interest in joining his group he let her have it and said,"We don't take GIRLS in my troop. Join the GIRL Scouts!" Which she did do <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> The gender separation aside, which I honestly don't have that big of a deal with personally, so long as the Scouts take public funds they open themselves to caving to public will as it changes or whatever. You'd be better off forming up like the Masons have <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" /> rnorman345 on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism#post-285293 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:54:10 +0000 rnorman345 285293@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ Hi all, I believe that this is all a great shame, a lot of misunderstandings. 1 An atheist CAN teach a Beaver, Cub (or Scout) ‘how to tie his boot laces’; as Tomzak says ‘he is a helper with ...‘ <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" /> He/she cannot, again as Tomzak correctly says, become a ‘leader’ – i.e. take total responsibility for the young persons' welfare, as leaders have to make the Promise, the first part of which is: ’On my honour, I promise, that I will do my best to do my duty to God …’ i.e. they have ‘a faith’, Muldanian <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" /> a belief in God is NOT a condition of membership …… Martin please re-think your 3 and 4, as you are correcting the misunderstandings of masonry <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" /> 2 BP had great foresight – he understood that his faith in a God had not suddenly appeared, he had gathered it on his road through life; at times he had ‘not known’ indeed he had ‘doubted’ maybe, even, for a period been certain that there was no God. He instigated a promise called ‘The Outlander Promise’ which was designed for people who were unable to say ‘I will do my duty to God’ as they were agnostic or indeed were unable to say ‘and to the Queen/my country’ as they were stateless. Unfortunately this has gone by the way side. 3 Please note that BP also only suggested that we can do our best – NONE of us is perfect <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" /> 4 Also, unless things have changed, the Scout Association in the UK is not a religious charity; it is, again as far as I am aware, an educational charity. I am aware that in some countries, even in Europe, Scouting is split between religious sects. I know that BP viewed this as a great shame as he went to great efforts to encourage them to join together and allow all faiths to prosper together within Scouting. There are Scout (groups) in the UK who are outside the SA – not completely sure why, though it started in 1966 when my shorts went out <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" /> 5 Finally as you can see from the above there is no dichotomy in Scouting awarding a badge to an atheist or, indeed, a humanist and there should be no dichotomy in Stephen accepting it; one of my best friends in Scouting had a humanist funeral <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" /> I would welcome help from any humanist in running my sections – if they can put up their fears and worries about my faith <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" /> Nitro on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism#post-283491 Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:18:08 +0000 Nitro 283491@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ "Discussions of religion are banned in masonic lodges, so this would hardly be an issue. Besides which, like the Cubs or Scouts, men tend to come to masonry via their friends and a gay man is hardly likely to be hanging out with a Southern Baptist is he?" Uh, the vast majority of Masons in the states extend well below the Mason-Dixon line. I'd think a well versed, upstanding and extremely knowledgeable Mason like yourself would know that and be able to understand a simple thing like 'context'. That's ok. Carrying on with your point...you're eating your own pipe and i'll show you why with your own words... you say that you yourself lied about being an atheist as a kid yet seem to think in the above paragraph that you might be the only Mason capable of such a thing in order not to rock the boat...I have little doubt that Masonry would encourage the use of subterfuge, indirection, and lieing to join an organization. For many that are not the 'rule makers' in Masonry, they join initially in hopes of making business connections. They generally STAY because they are aligned, and comftorably so, politically and socially with the other members. Please stop pretending there's some purity to Masonry not present in other org's. as for the 33rd being a distinct christian org...wait, i thought there was no religion in masonry? LOL Women CAN NOT be free masons, and you're saying they can be is absolute falsehood...they are generally only included in lodge activity as side dishes in activities by point of being a mason's wife...there are organizations such as "The Daughters of the Eastern Star", but they are not, by pure definition, MASONS...these is EASY TO FIND BY SIMPLY USING YOUR FAVORITE SEARCH ENGINES KIDS... For my part, I know and have known Masons personally...I keep my distance, personally... Would you like to start any more of your points with 'Erm...'? Makes you sound really thoughtful instead of doing what you are, which is damage control. As for the ceremonies, there are plenty on YT ( thank technology for busting out stuff like this versus having to rely on the never unbiased 'scoop' of actual members ), of secret masonic videos on tape...I would recommend one filmed in Turkey on a cell phone...I'm not talking conspiracy stuff here either...as for Masonic philosophy, that too can be researched with your favorite search engine... point in fact: Masons ARE a sexist organization and the average Mason, particularly south of the Mason-Dixon line, are NOT FRIENDLY TO GAY PEOPLE....geezus petey, just look at the members general political affiliations: "pro-family", anti-gay, anti-choice, candidate must be a god believer BTW, thanks for letting me know that Masonry is, in fact, a 'career'. As for my assertion that breaking the fealty of the oath an intitiate takes, you are flat either lieing or living in delusion land. Anyone here can look up the words of that oath and if they're so interested, I trust they will. But, I trust even more that Masonry actually is what it is...a dieing organization. The numbers are dwindling faster than they are being replaced. Probably cheeses some people off, but hey, that's Life. Men actually DO grow up, imagine that <img src="http://www.stephenfry.com/bb-content/plugins//bb-smilies/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" /> And, just like the Scouts will probably do and the Catholic church will do and many other denom's will do, they will either die out or change with the times. That does NOT erase their initial fundamental principles that they were founded on. I don't like slavery, but it's a fact that humans enslave each other and will, given the chance. Thankfully, the affinity for slavery has, in the West at least, became unpopular and unjustifiable and abandoned. "They are a traditional form of recognition that were once used by the Cathedral builders in the middle ages to tell the qualified builders from the cowboys." Gotcha! That's a flat out lie. And, are you going to actually try to deny that Masonry does not put forth that when you are presented with two potential employees, both of equal skills, that you should hire ONLY the Mason? Wouldn't want any cowboys taking jobs from you ol' boys eh? How in the world would you control the guilds and such? Tsk. It had nothing to do with 'qualified' versus 'cowboys'. That was the public rationalization to deflect accusation of unfair hiring practices by Masons. The fact is, those handshakes tell each other a lot more than you are letting on and they do, in point of fact, allow for discrimination AGAINST non-Masons in hiring. roflmao...keep justifying 'Master' LOL Nice of you to hope I don't get cancer, but if I do you can trust I won't be coming to you for the money to help AND, btw, I've already prepared for that. I adore your self-righteous arrogance though I don't think me getting cancer was a necessary scenario, was it? Well, otoh, I've noticed that when it comes to the true believer of anything, the rationale for doing and saying vile things is only a threat away, however indirect or direct. BTW, I made it very clear in my former post that I was not speaking about masonry as represented in the UK but I'm also not going to sit here while you pretend that Masonry is more morally pure on some level than it is here in the states. You guys had absolutely NO problem with slavery or being slave owners either, and it's WHY there are divisions, still, between black and white lodges. I mean, come ON, stop obfuscating with watered down rhetoric meant to lull people away from the evil that men do just so you can actively recruit. And you guys are always recruiting and amping up who you are reaching out to and THAT is documented as well. There are no secrets in Masonry. You're right, not anymore. Enough 'Masters' have jumped ship and renounced your organization and revealed just how (not)wonderful Mason ideology really is and, thanks to the W-W-W that information has spread like lightening. It's not a coincidence "Master" that Masonry's membership has fallen off as technology/data transfer has spread. You guys CAN'T be secret anymore, so I wouldn't surprised at all if there's plenty of internal philosophical 'culling' going on. Aren't 'that secret'? ROFL!! Ah, the stretches a true believer will take in order to deflect. Not 'that secret'. I'll be chuckling all day over that one. Martin Benson on "Scouts and Atheism" http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/topic/scouts-and-atheism#post-283175 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:57:17 +0000 Martin Benson 283175@http://www.stephenfry.com/forum/ Sorry to reopen this, but I have just found this and I have to correct this poster. For his information. I am gay. I am a Freemason. I was a Scout Leader for over 20 years. "Masons ideology puts forth that one of marriages purposes is biological reproduction of the male and female." Masonry has no such ideology. Buy a book of Masonic ceremonies and check for yourself. "For example, a woman becoming a man and then trying to join." Not even an issue. "however, in masonry, one is elected in by secret ballot." As members are in other organisations. "culture of a particular lodge is made up of members who are, for example, primarily southern baptist, conservative then your odds of being voted in are slim to none. and I mean, of course, if you are openly gay." Discussions of religion are banned in masonic lodges, so this would hardly be an issue. Besides which, like the Cubs or Scouts, men tend to come to masonry via their friends and a gay man is hardly likely to be hanging out with a Southern Baptist is he? "now, you may find a lodge that welcomes openly gay men. but remember, too, that the masons do NOT condone gay marriage because their foundational tenents assert that one of the purposes of marriage is procreation, and two gay are not biologically capable of it. therefore, while you can be an open gay may in some lodges, you cannot be an openly gay man who is married to his male partner." This is nonsense on several levels. We have NO COMMENT on marriage or its purpose. The only promise is that a Mason will not have relationships with another Mason's wife or his daughter. that is in the ceremony book, which can be purchased on Amazon. the other thing to remember is that the masonic order is run primarily from the very top. I'm talking 33rd degree and over. that's a near impossible climb for *most* initiates to achieve in their own lifetime. those rings are often handed down father to son. The HIGHEST degree in Freemasonry is the THIRD DEGREE, which is 'completed' by being in the Royal Arch or chapter. The 33rd degree (which is a CHRISTIAN order) is a side or specialist order of Freemasonry. I am a 3rd degree mason. I have a 33rd in my Lodge, but while I was the Master, I was 'superior' to him. "it is absolutely, diabolically almost, a patriarchal order. personally, any orgaization that bans an entire gender has something to hide under the hood." Erm, women can be freemasons. There are two UK female groupings and one MIXED grouping. The mixed one is also open to atheists too. " according to masonic rules and the initiate ceremony itself indicates this....sword tip, meet breast..the initiate swears on his life to uphold and anything else is betrayal of the brothers...)." Not true. Read the ceremonies. We swear (several times in our career in fact) to be good citizens and uphold the laws of the land we live in. "btw, i know a couple of local masons. they openly detest homosexuals. so, while there's no specific tenent that i could find banning gay men, there is an absolute influence when it comes to joining the order and then finding a lodge with the political climate one might enjoy." I my lodge, there are at least three former masters who are gay and there are other openly gay members too. Like I said, one tends to join the things your pals join. I joined because a couple of my (gay) pals said it was a good thing. It is and I ended up a Master. There are no secrets in Masonry, they are all out there to find. Our ceremonies can be bought in any bookshop and or premises are open as public museums. Oh and we raise money for public charities too. Hope you don't get cancer, but if you do, you might end up being treated at Barts with the Cyberknife. The £2m that revolutionary machine costs was paid for by ordinary masons putting their hands in their pockets at lodge meetings all over London. Some conspiracy theory huh! "all the secrete handshakes and such strike me as unatural behavior for grown men" They are a traditional form of recognition that were once used by the Cathedral builders in the middle ages to tell the qualified builders from the cowboys. These days of course, geniune builders have City and Guilds certificates and NVQ's, but they didn't have them back then. All we have done is keep them up. Oh, and they ain't that secret either.