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asamaki


Member

Posted Sat Oct 6th, 2007 11:37pm Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
Guess I should mention Kay Reidfield Jamison's 'Touched by Fire: Manic depressive illness and the artisitic temperament'.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnin.....31&z=y

I think if you're bipolar you tend to look at things from many different perspectives, depending on your mood, there may be some selection and survival advantage under challanging and alternative environments. Imagine for example animals on an island facing a draught or some other critical situation, most would stay on the island and risk dying, there maybe some desperate or 'mad' enough willing to swim out into the unknown and let destinany cary them to a new environment.

You could do an experiment if you had mice with bipolar, compare their survival instincts with normal mice and see if they do better longer term when faced with some swim or die situation.

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asamaki


Member

Posted Sat Oct 6th, 2007 11:46pm Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
Not sure if any research done but I'd imagine suicide in bipolar patients has some element of escape to another unknown environment. A swim or die situation where dying in this case is used metaphorically, dying of boredom and the norm...

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Nele


Member

Posted Mon Feb 25th, 2008 10:36am Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
Please, don't go blaming the environment. If you only live to be 25, course you don't get cancer. And even if you did, you wouldn't die of it. You would get weaker and some animal would kill you, or you'd simply starve. And even if you'd die, we are probably not to know, unless you dropped into a glacier (concerning cancer couple of million years ago).
Cancer isn't one of the vices of civilization, it's a virtue. Nowadays, civilized people live long enough to even get it. Not that I want cancer, or want anyone else to have it and I know it's a bastard. But I'd rather be 80 and die from cancer than 13 and die during childbirth.

And about depression in the millennia past, or in very "savage" parts of Africa, well of course there wasn't much of it. I don't think that evolution favours BP or Depression. Only behaviour that enhances procreation in an individual will be an asset in the evolutionary battle. Even if "mad" people were reverred as spiritual leaders/seers etc. did they produce more offspring? I doubt it. In many cultures religious rank was "used" as a way of removing individuals from the genepool (or why else should so many religions require chastity )

I believe manic depression has nothing whatsoever to do with evolution but with culture. If you are constantly fearing for your survival (and tigers, famine and the rash you discovered on your privates, some centuries before medicine was even discovered), you do not ask questions. You don't go, yes there is a tiger but do I really want to run, what do I want to run for, is it all really worth it, should I just run to run again for the rest of my life - you just run. Period. Now if there is no tiger, you are plump and rosy with a full freezer, a doctor takes care of every pimple on your arse, there's a roof over your head and you don't have a worry in the world, than you've got time to ask questions.

Douglas Adams puts it this way:

The history of every major galactic civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry, and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why, and Where phases. For instance, the first phase is characterized by the question “How can we eat?” the second by “Why do we eat?” and the third by “Where shall we have lunch?”.

We have passed them all and our question is "Do we really want to eat?"
In groups were starving is still a real thread, there are very few anorexics. Funnily the countries with the most fatties (e.g. America, UK, Germany) are also the countries with most anorexia. Just like those people who have the least to worry about, worry the most. If your life is on the brink, you don't think, you act.

So probably thinking makes depressed and in that way madness is a step to a higher plane of enlightenment and human development.

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Nele


Member

Posted Mon Feb 25th, 2008 10:39am Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans

You could do an experiment if you had mice with bipolar, compare their survival instincts with normal mice and see if they do better longer term when faced with some swim or die situation.

Bipolar mice?

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katysara


Moderator

Posted Mon Feb 25th, 2008 5:41pm Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
AlanNotHim - can I just ask, you are not the Alan who is my boss are you?

Interesting thread.

KSx

I am an administrator on this site.

"Having a great intellect is no path to being happy."
~ Stephen Fry

See my website: www.katysaraculling.com

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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Tue Feb 26th, 2008 12:26am Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
Some parts of science think that depression was a survival tactic during hard times, by conserving energy over, for example, a long winter 20,000 years ago. In this way relatively many survived, conferrinbg these genes on. The minority of risk-takers (I'll get that tiger - he'll be sleepy!!!) had less chance of survival proportionately, but those who did survive also conferred genes onwards, with different advantages for survival, but remaining a minority. Life is different in some ways today, but these gene-management techniques survive in our behaviours.


Chris

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AlanNotHim


Member

Posted Tue Feb 26th, 2008 4:09am Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
AlanNotHim - can I just ask, you are not the Alan who is my boss are you?


I am not even in the same country... (Metaphorically and physically.)

\"Life is not all champaign. Sometimes it is real pain.\"

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AlanNotHim


Member

Posted Tue Feb 26th, 2008 4:11am Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
Some parts of science think that depression was a survival tactic during hard times, by conserving energy over, for example, a long winter 20,000 years ago. In this way relatively many survived, conferrinbg these genes on. The minority of risk-takers (I'll get that tiger - he'll be sleepy!!!) had less chance of survival proportionately, but those who did survive also conferred genes onwards, with different advantages for survival, but remaining a minority. Life is different in some ways today, but these gene-management techniques survive in our behaviours.


I was thinking less about survival and just general mutation of brain chemistry. (The kind of mutations a population goes through when survival is no longer an issue and the population can change however the chemical reactions dictate.)

\"Life is not all champaign. Sometimes it is real pain.\"

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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Tue Feb 26th, 2008 9:01am Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
I was thinking about this bit i Nele's post above.


And about depression in the millennia past, or in very "savage" parts of Africa, well of course there wasn't much of it. I don't think that evolution favours BP or Depression. Only behaviour that enhances procreation in an individual will be an asset in the evolutionary battle. Even if "mad" people were reverred as spiritual leaders/seers etc. did they produce more offspring?

hence

[i]Some parts of science think that depression was a survival tactic during hard times, by conserving energy over, for example, a long winter 20,000 years ago. In this way relatively many survived, conferrinbg these genes on. The minority of risk-takers (I'll get that tiger - he'll be sleepy!!!) had less chance of survival proportionately, but those who did survive also conferred genes onwards, with different advantages for survival, but remaining a minority. Life is different in some ways today, but these gene-management techniques survive in our behaviours. [/]


C

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greentree


Member

Posted Tue Feb 26th, 2008 9:13pm Post subject: A few thoughts on the evolutionary path of humans
Interesting discussion....

Does this not also depend on a) what we mean by madness, and b) our 21st century understanding of moods/our brains and how they work?

I'm not sure we're evolving down a path of madness - it may just be that we're defining 'normal' more narrowly/differently, and thus 'madness' is that which outside of that definition. So someone who maybe used to be called 'eccentric' a hundred years ago, might now be classed as bi-polar, or OCD or whatever.

I guess also we now understand more about how our brains work, and we now 'scientificise' (not a proper word, I know) medicine, and label ourselves and our conditions differently. Pre Enlightenment doctors used to talk about the four humours - phlegm, black bile, yellow bile and blood, which they associated with four personality types - phlegmatic, melancholic, choleric and sanguine, and they would 'let' (eg) blood or bile if they thought the patient had too much of one substance, to balance the personality.

There was also the 'issue' of labelling women as 'hysterical' when they would get upset about things, or they'd be called 'nervous types' or 'highly strung', but not necessarily 'mad' in the pure sense of the word. Now, with our increased understanding of medicine, we might call those women anxious and prescribe an anti anxiety medicine, or offer counselling.

I think (in my usual long winded way) what I'm saying is, I don't think humans are evolving down a route leading to madness; I think it's always been part of the rich variety of life that is the human race, we just now understand and 'labe' it differently, therefore it appears to occur more frequently, but may not necessarily be more prevalant in reality.

No sig.

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