Topic RSS | Reply to topic
Author Post

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Wed Apr 9th, 2008 10:39pm Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

Florida OKs a Take-You-Gun-To-Work policy

Back to top

j9r


Member

Posted Wed Apr 9th, 2008 11:40pm Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
Florida once again show their craziness.

I am so sick of these people who don't understand that the second amendment is so the states can form militia. When it was written, we just overthrew a government and thought the states might need to do that again. So the states can form militias, which were changed to the National Guard. So you want to own a gun, join the Guard. No one is stopping you, you might end up in Iraq but oh well......or do they think that the pistol in your car will be necessary at the Safeway when Florida declares war on Mississippi......

---j

"I'm from New Jersey, if the world ended today, I'd adjust" - John Gorka

Back to top

LilyG


Member

Posted Thu Apr 10th, 2008 12:41am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
ARGHHHHHH!
madness.

Back to top

MusicalMaven


Member

Posted Thu Apr 10th, 2008 12:54am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
There's a great response to the second amendment in an episode of Family Guy...the scene is here: http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1142521455/Family_Guy_Right_to_Bear_Arms

Back to top

LilyG


Member

Posted Thu Apr 10th, 2008 1:02am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
oh yeah i know the one, thats hilarious.

Back to top

ysabella


Member

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 12:27am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
I would argue that the National Guard is not really a state militia. It's part of the Army - it's run by Feds, it's armed by Feds. The States don't have much authority over them. If the National Guard turned on our Federal government, that would be more like a military coup than a rebellion by the people or the States.

Some States, including my own, actually have a state Guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Forces

They don't really do anything armed. They are not issued arms (or uniforms or any equipment - they have a uniform, but they have to buy it). They mostly exist to help out after natural disasters, that sort of thing.

So are they well-regulated? Should they be issued arms? Or should they be the only people in the state allowed to have arms? Would they be allowed to keep them at home? In Colonial days and pioneer days, every household had a rifle. But there weren't really police forces like we have now. Are the police a militia? Are they allowed to bear arms?

Back to top

Bishop of Attleborough


Member

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 3:08am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
Florida OKs a Take-You-Gun-To-Work policy
The term "Take-Your-Guns-To-Work measure" is more than a bit of mischaracterization, given that the law doesn't actually compel businesses to allow employees or visitors to carry a firearm into the building, but at most to keep it locked in their own "private conveyance" (as Florida state firearms law puts it) parked in the business' parking lot. Personally, I rather like the idea that a "private conveyance" should be just that--private--and that it is therefore none of your employer's damn business what kind of items you choose to keep in your car that your employer might find objectionable but are otherwise legal for you to possess, be it pornographic material, tobacco products, Kenny G CDs, or indeed, firearms (and as opposed to, say, corporate proprietary information or pilfered office supplies). It would have been better, perhaps, if the Florida state legislature had passed a law to that effect instead.

As it is, I get the impression, perusing various gun owner boards, that very few gun owners would be inclined to avail themselves of this option, because most are too worried about the risk of losing a firearm to a car break-in.

I am so sick of these people who don't understand that the second amendment is so the states can form militia. When it was written, we just overthrew a government and thought the states might need to do that again. So the states can form militias, which were changed to the National Guard. So you want to own a gun, join the Guard. No one is stopping you, you might end up in Iraq but oh well......or do they think that the pistol in your car will be necessary at the Safeway when Florida declares war on Mississippi......
What an interesting notion, that "the people" actually means "state governments." Let's try making that substitution elsewhere in the Bill of Rights and see if it makes sense, shall we?
Starting with the First Amendment: "Congress shall pass no law ... abridging ... the right of [state governments] peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Or the Fourth: "The right of [state governments] to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated ..."
And, of course, the Tenth: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to [state governments]."
Frankly, I find the idea that, since I'm not a state legislator or government employee, I don't have any civil liberties more than a little disturbing.

Then, consider this analogue to the Second Amendment:
"A well educated Electorate, being necessary to self-governance in a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."

This provision, which is grammatically identical to the Second Amendment, obviously means the following: because a well educated electorate is necessary to the health of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed. The sentence does not say, imply, or even suggest that only registered voters have a right to books. Nor does the sentence say, imply, or even suggest that the right to books may be exercised only by state employees. Nor does the lack of identity between the electorate and the people create some kind of grammatical or linguistic tension within the sentence. It is perfectly reasonable for a constitution to give everyone a right to books as a means of fostering a well educated electorate.
(Source: Lund, N. "A Primer on the Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms")

It's worth noting in this context that US Code section 10.311 states:(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
Basically, even if you're not formally enlisted in the (Air) National Guard, you can still be in the militia (whether you want to be or not).

But the federal constitution isn't the only statute in play here. Article I, Section 8 of the Florida State Constitution states:(a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.Italics mine.
Florida is by no means alone in this; no fewer than 44 states have constitutional provisions explicitly guaranteeing their citizens the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense (the exceptions being California, Iowa, Maryland, Minnesota, New Jersey and New york).

"Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He’d been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a post-graduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me." - Terry Pratchett, Jingo

Back to top

karen m


Member

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 3:53am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
i know nothing of the amendments so i won't pretend to but i'm pretty sure that condoning the carrying of guns is condoning the use of guns, it would be quite easy for people to gain access to guns either illegally or through the correct procedure but with the wrong intentions. just because you can carry a gun doesn't mean you should........ america equals angry country where you can shoot people for entering your home, which, granted, has it's advantages but puts the law into the hands of citizens who are not always capable of rational thinking in certain situations

Back to top

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 4:08am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
I wouldn't say the phrasing 'Take-Your-Gun-To-Work' suggestions workers are compelled to do anything, after all workers who either don't have a daughter or aren't inclined to bring them along on 'Take-Your-Daughter-To-Work Day' aren't exactly locked outside of the gates.

My shock and horror at the new Florida law isn't directed at the issue of gun ownership. I do believe that the gun lobby in the United States had decidedly trumped up the second amendment but I do also think home gun ownership was likely intended by the founding fathers (that being said, one doesn't need an uzi at home, does one?). My horror has more to do with the idea of guns in the cars of a state infamous for bad driving (and I say that as a Californian, where we practically invented road rage) and the idea that said guns will be left unprotected in vehicles for hours on end allowing all and sundry to come and take a crack at stealing them (along with radios too, why not go for gold eh?) I think the US already has a far big enough black market for guns without turning every corporate parking lot into the wal-mart of firearms.

Back to top

Bishop of Attleborough


Member

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 6:22am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
My horror has more to do with the idea of guns in the cars of a state infamous for bad driving (and I say that as a Californian, where we practically invented road rage) [...]
Meh. The anti-gun lobby (Brady Campaign, Violence Policy Center, et al.) predicted mayhem, bloodshed and Wild West-style shootouts during rush hour when Florida enacted a law making concealed handgun permits "shall-issue."
Said mayhem didn't happen then, and it won't happen now.
[...] and the idea that said guns will be left unprotected in vehicles for hours on end allowing all and sundry to come and take a crack at stealing them (along with radios too, why not go for gold eh?) I think the US already has a far big enough black market for guns without turning every corporate parking lot into the wal-mart of firearms.
Yeah, like I noted in my previous post, most gun owners whose opinions I've read on various gun owner forums aren't too keen on leaving their firearms where they might be stolen either. (Where does this strange idea come from that gun owners don't care about their guns being stolen?) In particular, none of them cares for the idea of returning to his cars to find the break-in artist waiting for him and mugging him with his own gun. The few who do on occasion leave their weapons in their cars tend to handcuff the gun to a seat fixture (with one cuff looped through the trigger guard behind the trigger so that it can't be pulled) and remove an essential part of the weapon, such as the barrel.

"Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He’d been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a post-graduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me." - Terry Pratchett, Jingo

Back to top

Bishop of Attleborough


Member

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 6:31am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
There's a line from the article that has led to head-scratching in certain quarters.
Dozens of workplace shootings occur every year in the United States, and studies have shown that job sites where guns are permitted are more likely to suffer workplace homicides than those where guns are prohibited.
Ah, of course, "studies have shown." Oddly enough, the Reuters writrer does not see fit to cite any of these manifold studies, probably because they weren't worth the paper they were printed on. The most common term for a workplace shooting rampage is "going postal," right? Anyone want to hazard a guess what the status of firearms is on US Postal Service property?

The answer's in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 39, § 232.1, subsection (l).

"Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He’d been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a post-graduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me." - Terry Pratchett, Jingo

Back to top

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 7:03am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
There's a line from the article that has led to head-scratching in certain quarters.
Dozens of workplace shootings occur every year in the United States, and studies have shown that job sites where guns are permitted are more likely to suffer workplace homicides than those where guns are prohibited.
Ah, of course, "studies have shown." Oddly enough, the Reuters writrer does not see fit to cite any of these manifold studies, probably because they weren't worth the paper they were printed on. The most common term for a workplace shooting rampage is "going postal," right? Anyone want to hazard a guess what the status of firearms is on US Postal Service property?

The answer's in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 39, § 232.1, subsection (l).

I'm not sure you even need a study to suspect that particular statistic. It seems fairly evident that access to guns at the workplace increases (at the very least) the likelihood of a shooting at that workplace as opposed to one that does not allow firearms on the property. Rather like the chances of being injured by fireworks goes up among populations that use fireworks, as opposed to those that don't.

It seems that you are a great fan of my native but distant land's gun toting so I think I'll just have to bow out at this point, although others are certainly welcome to continue on. I get that it's the law and I do genuinely believe hunters and such have a right to their weapons (I'm less convinced about handguns, personally) but I simply don't have the stomach for yet another debate on the merits of gun ownership and the various laws that should be applied. It might be legal and it might even be as the Founders intended but it smacks of a cruelty and mean animal nature that breaks my heart. I just can't get beyond the morals of it and that won't change, certainly not due to a zero room discussion. My apologies.

Back to top

joan


Member

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 10:20am Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
We had a big massacre here years ago - the Port Arthur Massacre in Tasmania. The government banned certain firearms after that - just about all concealable weapons, and most other weapons if you had no logical reason to own a gun.

Anyway, there was a lot of argument about it when the laws were going through, and you'd be amazed how many people talked about their 'right to bear arms'. Daft, but I was talking to a copper friend, and she said when questioning some idiots, theyd refuse to speak, saying 'I'll take the 5th'. Honestly, some folks must think we're a state of the US!!! Too much telly probably.

I hate the gun culture, and feel sorry for the Americans being stuck with all that idiocy. To add insult to injury, if you DO get shot there, and let's face it, you've more chance of it happening there than in the rest of the western world, there's no national health service to look after you, so if you're uninsured that's a doubly whammy.

Back to top

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 5:24pm Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
everytime i look at this thread, this song gets stuck in my head...

"don't take your gun to town, son,
leave your gun at home, bill..."

do y'all know that song? what is it? i may have the words wrong.

i would love to make a cd of all the country songs about someone who got a little too attached to thier gun. the highwaymen singing "devils right hand" is one of my favorites. but i don't know country music super well.

Back to top

TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Fri Apr 11th, 2008 5:35pm Post subject: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?
everytime i look at this thread, this song gets stuck in my head...

"don't take your gun to town, son,
leave your gun at home, bill..."

do y'all know that song? what is it? i may have the words wrong.

i would love to make a cd of all the country songs about someone who got a little too attached to thier gun. the highwaymen singing "devils right hand" is one of my favorites. but i don't know country music super well.

It's Johnny Cash Banjo, now if you'll excuse me while I go and clean my gun.
X-D
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnycash/donttakeyourgunstotown.html

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

Back to top