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Desdemona


Member

Posted Thu May 28th, 2009 6:22pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
I think its really interesting how our countrys differ.

i have a really wild theory whether it could work or not i ahve no idea. However us brits have been here before there were guns, we survived without them, and when they came they were a helpfull thing, just another means to kill animals. with america, guns came over with the whites and became a way of survival; you ahve bigger animals out there. While the towns and citys evolved, the tradition of the gun hasn't been dropped, maybe as america grows the habbit of getting guns will die down.
(sorry this probably isn't politically correct and i havn't done any research or anything.)


I don't knwo what the situation is but I get the impression that there are alot more gun shops in america than brittain. I have never see a gun shop here.

Skip Life and come with me?

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Stoopiduk


Member

Posted Thu May 28th, 2009 6:24pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns

I don't knwo what the situation is but I get the impression that there are alot more gun shops in america than brittain. I have never see a gun shop here.

I think if you looked for them you'd notice there are hunting shops in large towns. I know colchester has 2 that stock shotguns. But that all you're likely to find there; guns for hunting and for sport.

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PamJH


Member

Posted Thu May 28th, 2009 6:34pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
There was a gun shop near my dad's (years ago) that sported a sign that said
"10,000 guns." Now whether it really had that many was up for debate, but dad said the guy had a bunch.

There was a fire there after I went off to college (late 70s). Dad said it was spectacular and not in a good way. Fortunately, the guy didn't carry as much ammo as most gun shops did in those days.

Our town is quite small and has a gun shop owned by an actual gunsmith. I gather he had to take training or something to get that title, but I don't know.

I suppose this is a little off-topic, but hopefully not by much.

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Nitro


Member

Posted Thu May 28th, 2009 7:06pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
It's a little difficult to talk about the bigger picture of legal gun ownership or the difference in attitude between 'mericans and other countries without getting slightly off topic, seemingly, by referencing histories. That's probably why when people have this discussion, the many variables involved become frustrating and then, as is often the case in many topics, people revert back to simplistic, emotionally charged answers. It is a complex topic and people tire easy X-D

America IS a young country. And it's hard to predict what it will look like in the same time frame that, for instance, China has been around ( seven THOUSAND years or so..? ). We're kind of like a giant toddler with a whole lot of money and power, so as we walk around everyones gardens it's no surprise I guess we crush a lot of other peoples long tended flowers X-D Actually, that's only slightly funny I guess.

We certainly can't take it upon ourselves to tell other countries citizens they should be armed. I mean, that's up to them to fight for or not. But when I think about the millions of innocent lives slaughtered because they were simply caught in the cross-fire of some militant uprising or regime change, I know the answer is not simple. Someone might argue,"Well, if those militants didn't have access to guns...etc etc.", but it strikes me as fairly Utopian because it totally subtracts the less positive sides of human nature. Especially when humans band together as true believers in some cause that eventually needs to be, in the minds of the members, forced upon a society.

For me, and this is an example of simpleness, gun control is being able to hit your target. The people who can hit their targets are usually respectful, law abiders. The people who can't are often criminals. Yet, stricter gun laws don't impact the criminals who spray bullets out the windows of speeding cars. The criminal elements that fight each other for 'turf' ( the mob, biker gangs, militia members, gangs in cities, extreme pro-life groups like The Army of God ) could give a rats ass about laws. They all arm their members and don't notify the police about it, that's for sure.

I saw Bowling for Columbine. It was edited with great effect. X-D I actually like some of Mr.Moore's stuff ( TV Nation was pretty cool ), but he goes a little off the deep end for me. Kinda the different side of the same coin thing.

Many people have very sharp and large cooking knives to chop food. They're in kitchens everywhere. Only occasionally are they used to stab the neighbor or 'loved' one. So, should cooking knives be made illegal in totality or should there be a liscencing aspect for their ownership? Well, I'm not sure I'd care since I don't really cook that much or that well X-D But my friend who insists a good cook always has sharp knives would be mighty pissed if laws based on my attitude and/or use of them were passed.

I bet if the Aztecs had guns, those conquistadors would've had a much, much harder time conquering them for Spain (oh, and the Pope too..can't forget the Pope ).

BTW, in the states if you committ armed robbery your punishment is a longer sentence than without. Well, it hasn't has had much impact on armed robbery

Really? Wow.

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Desdemona


Member

Posted Thu May 28th, 2009 7:15pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns


America IS a young country. And it's hard to predict what it will look like in the same time frame that, for instance, China has been around ( seven THOUSAND years or so..? ). We're kind of like a giant toddler with a whole lot of money and power, so as we walk around everyones gardens it's no surprise I guess we crush a lot of other peoples long tended flowers X-D Actually, that's only slightly funny I guess.



I really like that metaphore.

Just wondering (i wonder alot) is it just the US that have massive covering of guncrime, because you don't really hear about much guncrime anywhere else. Surely the US can't be the only country that has these problems.

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Maxx England


Member

Posted Thu May 28th, 2009 7:26pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
Colombia's supposed to be a sort of Wild South from what I've seen reported.

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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Nitro


Member

Posted Fri May 29th, 2009 6:27am Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
Well, I tend to think that the greatest occurrence of gun crime is often globbed into cities for the most part. There are rural foibles, no doubt, but just not as often.

In the inner cities here, gangs are born and other gangs are born to counteract them. They claim whole neighborhoods as 'theirs'. If you are in another gang and cross the line, you're dead. It's not even discussed. You're GOING to be shot. These same folks carjack and rob etc etc. So for a long time the news focused on reporting those incidents. It's worse in places like LA and in various buroughs in NYC ( the Bronx, Brooklyn ).

In a rural area you frequently hear people doing target practice or hunting. Those sounds also act as a warning to would be criminals: We own guns here, we protect our homes and families, pass us by. And they generally do.

The news here loves hystrionic reporting. Wether it's some kid bit by an alligator while swimming somewhere, some surfer mangled by a shark, or they'll talk about some pit bull or rottweiler attacking a kid. They try to villify the breed and it's too bad but it works. It works because people don't question the news they get. They just think it's more real because it's on TV I guess. X-D Which is weird.

Threaded throughout every part of America is an underlying belief, as Pam mentioned already, that our individual freedoms are seriously important to us. For instance, I'm of the mind that I don't want the government telling me what to smoke, who to fuck, what to eat, drink, or drive. I don't want them preventing me from keeping and owning arms. I don't want them telling me I have to insert an ID chip into my pets.I So long as they keep off those things, I can continue to pursue Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. And if some criminal bursts into my home thinking he or she is going to turn that upside down, they'll be in for a terribly bad surprise. Everyone should be able to protect their home and their family from violent miscreants like that. Cap their knees, disamr them, and call the cops. Every homeowner ought to be able to do that.

Really? Wow.

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monochromeprincess


Member

Posted Fri May 29th, 2009 1:57pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8071512.stm

mp xxx

@dreamingshadow

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PamJH


Member

Posted Fri May 29th, 2009 2:02pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
Everyone should be able to protect their home and their family from violent miscreants like that. Cap their knees, disamr them, and call the cops. Every homeowner ought to be able to do that.

I agree completely with this statement. I will not allow anyone to attack me or mine in my own home. I will use whatever force I must, especially to protect my children.

The chances of someone invading my rural home are indeed small. But stranger things have happened. I've said before that I don't have a handgun. But I do know how to quickly load a 12-gauge. I would suspect facing a middle-aged, supremely annoyed woman who is equipped with such a weapon would give any petty criminal pause. It is unlikely I'd have to fire a shot.

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Fri May 29th, 2009 7:24pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
My wife is a city girl from New Orleans, and when we moved 2 years ago from Austin to the rural East Texas town where I grew up, one of the first things I wanted to do when we arrived was teach her how to use a shotgun, but she resisted citing her dislike of firearms. A few weeks later I went out for the evening with some friends I hadn't seen for a while. Spending one evening alone in that environment was all it took for her to start thinking about things like how long it would take for the police to arrive etc., and as a result of that night she now practices with me.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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PamJH


Member

Posted Fri May 29th, 2009 7:29pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8071512.stm

mp xxx

Thanks for the link, MP. This is a textbook example of irresponsible gun ownership that should be punished, just as I've advocated in an earlier post. There is no way a small child should have access to a gun, let alone a loaded gun.

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Fri May 29th, 2009 8:48pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
It really is a tragic example of irresponsibility, I have 2 small boys myself, and my guns are kept locked in a gun safe. We've been discussing the responsibility of owning and handling firearms, but we need to be as responsible with other things as well, like drinking and driving which claims the lives of many children, possibly more than firearms do.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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Nitro


Member

Posted Sat May 30th, 2009 5:00am Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
My wife is a city girl from New Orleans, and when we moved 2 years ago from Austin to the rural East Texas town where I grew up, one of the first things I wanted to do when we arrived was teach her how to use a shotgun, but she resisted citing her dislike of firearms. A few weeks later I went out for the evening with some friends I hadn't seen for a while. Spending one evening alone in that environment was all it took for her to start thinking about things like how long it would take for the police to arrive etc., and as a result of that night she now practices with me.

That's a great story Tobias because it fairly proves you're a responsible gun owner. Once she learns to shoot it properly and understands how it all works, maybe give her some ideas about how to handle a real intrusion ( step one: never hunt for them, let them come to you ) etc etc and let her practice ( with an unloaded gun of course )with you as intruder ( no surprise intrusions! ) and her where'd she might normally be sitting or laying. This helps people think about the realities of it and it absolutely MUST be emphasized it happens at amazing speeds. Being able to stay calm and clear thinking, which is easier with practice, is imperative and will help keep very normal fright levels in check.

Really? Wow.

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Daithi


Member

Posted Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 4:00pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
Guns and their ammunition are purposely designed to kill and that’s something worth thinking about.

The desire to kill precedes the design and use of the tool used to satisfy the desire. I would feel a lot safer if I lived in a world where the debate focussed on the control of the underlying desire to kill rather than the tool used to accomplish the deed.

That however is not the world I live in. I have lived and worked in the Middle East and other war-torn and socially and economically ravaged regions of the world and it is my observation and experience that those societies in which gun ownership is prevalent in the general population are also the most violent. Whether gun ownership is a cause or symptom of the violence is hard to establish but it is certainly true that death by bullet is far more probable in a place where there are flying bullets.

It certainly is possible to kill with a wide variety of the tools made by humanity. Bruce Lee popularised the nuncak which is a deadly martial arts weapon whose original use was as an agricultural flail. The Chinese civilian population were highly adept at turning a wide variety of everyday tools into killing weapons when they felt the need.

The Chinese were prevented from owning and being trained in the use of specifically designed weapons used by the soldiers and law enforcers of their society but that did not stop them from mounting a successful revolution which overthrew a political hierarchy they had become thoroughly dissatisfied with. Many other societies have similar histories.

I therefore reject the premise that a civilian population is more vulnerable to persecution by it’s government if that population is unarmed, or that the removal of an unwanted government is either hastened or slowed in the long run by the ownership of weapons by the civilian population.

History does not support this. What history shows is that we get the government we deserve, it treats us exactly how we should expect it to and we only get rid of it when a large enough majority of us decide it’s time for it to go. Heavily armed despots can massacre thousands, even millions, but like the Khmer Rouge, once popular support is gone a regime can only rule by terror for so long then the terror will consume the regime itself.

If the fundamental ability to sustain a society or change it’s governance is not enhanced by the civilian ownership of guns then what other benefits do accrue from such a widespread possession of firearms? Protection from dangerous wildlife? How many civilians are actually killed by bears, lions, wolves, alligators and other potentially dangerous wildlife? Very, very few. How many could have prevented their deaths if they had owned a gun? Hard to say, but as most of the wildlife dangerous to man possess senses and reflexes far superior to our own and kill by surprise ambush it’s hard to imagine that owning a gun would have been of much use in the majority of fatal encounters.

The biggest natural killer of man are snakes, the majority of the most venomous of whom are under one meter in length and bite you before you notice them. What function does a shotgun serve in such circumstances other than revenge? Do shotguns get used extensively to control and kill snakes? No, most are trapped and then stabbed, clubbed or poisoned to death.

I once asked a Maasia in Africa how he protected himself and his cattle from lions, he told me “by not being where they are” …sound advice! The Maasia do however hate and kill lions with guns and spears using their own safety and the safety of their cattle as justification. How long humanity can encroach on every ecosystem and slaughter every potential threat by bullet, trap and poison before the natural environment which sustains us is utterly destroyed is currently debated. The debate is however when the end will come not if it will come. If we reduced the size of our footprint in the natural world we would less reason to shoot it’s other inhabitants.

If the arguments for widespread civilian gun ownership cannot be supported by claims for the protection of the civilian against his rulers or to protect him against dangerous wildlife then it would seem that we only need guns to protect ourselves against each other. This however is also an illusion.

The population of the USA is now slightly less than that of the EU but both are extremely comparable populations of human beings in terms of size, diversity of cultures and behaviours. I utterly dismiss any ridiculous notion that Americans are any more or less violent in nature than Europeans or any other human beings. There is no such evidence.

It is however true that more Americans are shot dead than are Europeans. Gun crime is significantly higher in the USA than it is in the EU. The prevalence of crime itself however is roughly equally i.e. you are more or less as likely to get burgled, mugged and raped in the USA as you are in the EU. The only major difference being the likelihood of being shot.

The logic which flows inexorably from this is that citizens of the USA do not decrease their chance of being the victim of crime by owning a gun, they simply increase the probability of being shot dead by one. If this is simple math what’s the advantage that could possibly outweigh such an obvious disadvantage? Psychology.

Americans feel safer with a gun than they do without one. The fact that they demonstrably are not safer is irrelevant. The belief is stronger than the facts, just as the fear of crime is greater than the probability of being the victim of crime. If owning guns makes it easier for Americans to get through their daily lives who has the right to take their coping mechanism away from them?

In order for citizens of the USA and other lethal weapon owning societies to break their psychological dependence on the gun they would need to address the fundamental fear that drives them to want to own them in the first place. Americans do not fear guns, they fear the murderous intent of another human being. That is a logical fear.

I started this reply by saying that I wished I lived in a world where we debated how to rid ourselves of our murderous thoughts more than we debated how to rid ourselves of our tools of destruction and if we want a gun-free USA and gun-free planet that debate will have to happen in earnest and show results before any gun legislation could be useful.

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PamJH


Member

Posted Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 9:20pm Post subject: Ban/Allow Citizens to Own Guns
Daithi, your arguments do make a lot of sense. However, you state that the desire to kill precedes the design and use of the tool used to satisfy the desire. Does that make the desire to kill or even to harm is an innate human trait and it developed before weapons came into being? Are we not blaming the weapon for being the instrument of a human being's desire to hurt or kill?

I would argue that the desire to protect oneself and one's family is innate. While I certainly do wish that no other human being harmed or killed another, the fact remains that people will and do harm each other. I am not ready to give up what I see as my right to protect myself and my family. And if I have to do that with a gun, then I will do so. I am not a member of the National Rifle Association or any other group that advocates for gun use. This is simply my opinion on the subject. I would hate for anyone to think that I'm simply crazy about guns. I respect them as a dangerous weapon, but as with anything dangerous, the more you know, the safer you are.

A serious conversation about the issue would be a step in the right direction, you are right about that. But we will never have 100 percent participation in that conversation.

I appreciate your ability to present your views in a cogent manner, and I do agree with several of your points, including the idea that Americans are not any more or less violent than any other human beings.

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