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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sat Aug 29th, 2009 12:13am Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

Basically someone who is panicking has misinterpreted a physical sensation in their body

eg they may have a thought 'I have to go to the bank today'

this makes them apprehensive because they felt unaccountably nervous the previous week - and even though this was a new experience - feeling panicky [caused by a background of anxiety perhaps] - the thought of the impending journey this week makes them feel apprehensive - worried - about the journey to come. this apprehension sets in motion the body's natural anxiety response, the famouse 'fight or flight' idea.

What the apprehensive thought 'I might feel panicky in the bank today' does is release adrenoline to the bloodstream, and this uis responsible for setting up the physical figh/flight response - either way you want more oxygene more blood pumping round faster, the contents of your stomach bolted down by contracting the stomach muscles, and a range of othe bodily changes.

the person entering a panic attack MISINTERPRETS these physical effects - particularly increased heart rate - and takes this to be a signal that " benign or harmless events predict something catastrophic happening or being about to happen (Beck 1995, p.297, from Beck 1987).

What does this thought do 'Something catastrophic is about to happen [I am going to feint/I will faint in the bank if i feel like this there/people will think i am strange etc etc ] - IT INDUCES THE RELEASE OF MORE ADRENOLINE - which further heightens the sense that something catastrophic is about to happen physically - like fainting or having a heart attack...

and an attack is precipitated by this spiralling of adrenoline and emotion-laden thought - automatic thoughts, notice.

There is more to it than that in terms of addressing that outcome to anxiety but essentially i think you will see ythat that is pretty much what happens during panic, and it is of course completely destabilising.

the beta-blockers come into it because they reduce volatiolity of heart rate and such lokke- reducing the likelihood of physicalsensations precipitating an anxiety response.

I am not completely confident that is the reasoning behind the beta blockers - i should have found out more in our tuition on anxiety - but hey you can't find out everything. But i think that is why they are prescribed. Please someone correct me if that is wrong.

I am sure that you didn't expect to go to a seminar on anxiety tonight - sorry - but if hat stuff is helpful it might give insight into these issues and you are welcome to discuss this any way that helps.

Chris


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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sat Aug 29th, 2009 12:15am Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)


Velvet Morning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTL55R6iw2A&NR=1


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LizzA


Member

Posted Sat Aug 29th, 2009 1:26am Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

Soph said:
I think with anxiety and panic attacks in order to overcome them you have to get to the root of the problem that's causing it. No medication is going to take care of it completely, they often don't work as well as you'd hope. Propranolol, either works for you or it doesn't, it doesn't work for everyone. You have to decide, given the choice by your GP whether or not it's worth you having the side effects for what you're getting out the medication. Breathlessness doesn't sound too healthy, I must admit.

I've just turned 19, by the way. : ] And the dreaded thought alone of going to Uni brought me major amounts of anxiety. And so I'm unable to go. My anxiety has full control over me. Even though I'm on medications to try and illiminate the anxiety it doesn't work greatly but I feel for the very little that it does for me it's worth me taking them.

I don't know what else to add so I apoligies for my lack of usefulness!
I do hope you find your answers, take care.

I'm so sorry to hear that - at the moment I'm just avoiding thinking about it, though it's becoming unavoidable.

But you've been really helpful! Thank you

And DormouseChris, thank you for your posts, you've been so helpful too. I think I understand everything better now.


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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sat Aug 29th, 2009 2:20am Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

"I think I understand everything better now"

Thats lovely to hear - that's all that is wanted

Chris


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Soph


Member

Posted Sun Aug 30th, 2009 2:28pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

Thanks for the information, dear Dormouse. Makes alot of sence to me.

Photobucket

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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sun Aug 30th, 2009 4:50pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

so when you need more to make sense you are welcome to see if we can, Soph and LizzA

When someone sees how they are predicting the future/anticipating something catastrophic about to happen the thing to do then is to test (safely) those negative predictions - if they are true then problems become identified clearly which need 'problem-solving' - but the chances are that they are only partially true if at all. Again it is how realistic is your appraisal of the risk/threat over your capabilities? That distance is the degree of your anxiety/susceptibility to panic. With the panic aspect it is a misinterpretation of what is going on that 'escalates' the panic response - fright replacing flight/fight.

Do take care

Chris


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monochromeprincess


Member

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 1:10pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

Hey Lizzie
Sorry for the late reply! Don't come here as often as I used to.
When I first started presenting increasing anxiety and panic attacks to my GP last year (I'd had it at work), the first thing she did was but me on Propanalol. The description she gave me then seems to sum up for me how I feel about this drug, she said: 'I don't like public speaking so I take it to calm my nerves.' That's just it. I don't see it as being for people with serious, long term anxiety (or those with anxiety disorders), I see it as a little thing to get you through fairly un-serious things. Although after that she tried me on a wealth of horrendous other drugs, I always stuck with Propanalol. I always, always, no matter what I read about a drug, give it a good go, and satisfy for myself that it works or it doesn't work. In all, I was probably on it for 6-8 months. I went into my GP surgery on a routine appointment and told my GP: 'I'm going to stop taking the Propanalol.' She said 'okay.' and that was it, really. To me, it was utterly useless, because the anxiety I had overpowered the strength of the drug, and, as someone's already said, the reasons for why I was getting anxious in the first place were not being addressed, which is important to do in conjunction with medication.

In my opinion, the placebo effect of taking it does more than the physical effect of it. Ultimately, it's not like anti-depressant drugs, that effect the chemicals in your brain, all it does is stop your heart from beating so fast. And if your heart is beating fast, then it's probably too late anyway, you're probably into the anxiety or panic attack.

I'm completely willing to accept drugs that don't work for me work for other people, I'm just saying all that I have based on my experience with it.

hope you're well

mp xxx

@dreamingshadow

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marzgirl


Member

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 3:34pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

This is all very hard for me to wrap my head around. Might be over thinking, I dont know. Still having issues with the creatures in my new surroundings. I do not know how this was learned since most of them I have not seen in my life (except books), one I had not even heard of. Could be the books I guess when they explain how these creatures can harm. But seriously, all I want to do is avoid. I do not want to practice and be in the presence of any of these things. When one particular thing got in my house after I was told they typically dont come in houses, my husband and I searched for the entry point. While doing this I could not breath, was light headed......We found the entry point and sealed it up along with any others that looked potential. Sometimes going to sleep at night I lay there and I see flash images of these things that cause me to get anxious. Even now writting this I feel a bit flush and my pulse a bit elevated. I feel like if there was a situation with one of these and I did not have time to realy think, but only react, like if one of my kids were threatened, I could handle it. But if my brain has too much time to process and think of another way out, then I am toast. If given too much time to choose, I am going to choose the easy way out.
Does any of this make sense? It looks like from the DSM descriptions I fall under the phobic catagory. And then OCD follows because I do things to avoid those things like checking my bed before I get in it. Checking the shower before I get in. Checking cloths before I put them on. Makeing sure food is seeled up and cleaned up, but that is just good hygene anyway. I smoke but not in my house. I used to go in the garage and since most of the sightings of one creature have been in the garage, I have not been in there since. Also the creatures are nocturnal so I dont go out after dark anymore. If I have to, like we have been out and get home after dark, I have my husband go first and check before I will get out of the car. One plus is I am smoking less and sleeping better since I am not smoking right before bedtime. But really kind of over the top I guess, but I really have a hard time believing that. To me what I am doing is totally reasonable. I do see a therapist weekly. Seems I have alot of work to do. I just dont know if I am ready. Confronting this seems too much, too hard, adding to the trauma of the thing......
On the medication note, I have taken Xanax. I dont take it to prevent the attacks, just take one after one has started. So, not for daily use, I would guess I take one once a week at the most. Valium never worked for me. I was given one once before a dental procedure and it did not do anything. I swear I could have driven home myself. I felt no different. My sister takes propranolol, but not for anxiety. She has heart palpatations, and this helps to keep her heartbeat regular.
Sorry to be so long winded here. Just trying to wrap my head around the whole process. Sounds really difficult, confusing........
I hope everyone is doing well! I read your other post Monochrome, I wish I could help. I will say some prayers and or send positive thoughts your way, whatever your view, for what that is worth to you.
Thank you Lizza for starting this discussion. As uncomfortable as it makes me, it is probobly necessary. I hope you are finding better answers. Thanks DM for sharing your wealth of knowladge as always.
Cheers all!!!!

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
~Martin Luther King Jr.~

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marzgirl


Member

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 3:35pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

Dormouse said:

Velvet Morning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTL55R6iw2A&NR=1

So cute! Looks like it is winking knowingly at me! Like we share a secret. SHHHH!!!!

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
~Martin Luther King Jr.~

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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 3:53pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

She has a million different secrets which she shares with a million different people cos she goes on the internet after i go to bed (i check the browser history) Currently she is almost finished a Ph.D with the Open University about the Communards and Social History in France.


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marzgirl


Member

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 4:04pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

Dormouse said:
She has a million different secrets which she shares with a million different people cos she goes on the internet after i go to bed (i check the browser history) Currently she is almost finished a Ph.D with the Open University about the Communards and Social History in France.

I am glad to know "it" is a "she". I was not comfortable with that. I thought so! She looks very knowing and cunning! I bet she is already planning her next Ph.D.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
~Martin Luther King Jr.~

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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 4:05pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

The phobic thing. There is a lot of truth that much of what you feel is pretty normal, checking the shower, towels, not gong in the garage. And they do sound like an unpleasant crowd of creatures to have about. Your husband is less affected clearly, but I suspect a relatively high number of people would be affected much like you say. I have a feeling I would be - why I have never had an interest in going to Oz or Borneo or the Amazon - the insects/snakes etc.

I guess it is difficult to see what the Behavioural Model means when it says people 'learn to be ill'.

Here it means that the response you have evolved to these threats is learnt because you have learnt that your actions (behaviours) resolve the anxiety in the moment, and what you are reacting to is not so much the creature itself (though you ARE obviously reacting to its unwelcome presence), but that you are responding to *what that creature means to you in terms of how it makes you feel*, and that in response to that feeling you have learnt the responses you have.

I don't want to confuse you further or alarm you, so if that is not making full sense to you we can 'unpick' it a little more presently, if you wish.

And incidentally, what do i get out of making that offer "we can 'unpick' it a little more presently, if you wish"..... I get the opportunity to improve my understanding of the subject matter, and more importantly to me, I get another opportunity to learn how to explain this stuff so it becomes increasingly effective. I get other benefits too eg sense of community and so on. But the raison d'etre is that it improves my practice and it possibly hopefully gives you greater informed choice to act in your interests about resolving the stated difficulty.

Chris


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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 4:10pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

marzgirl said:
I am glad to know "it" is a "she". I was not comfortable with that. I thought so! She looks very knowing and cunning! I bet she is already planning her next Ph.D.

.

correct - she said she might look at the impact of EU fishing policies on North Sea Haddock levels... I said 'Really, Lucy, that sounds very focussed' and she said 'Well, I want to know if cats will have access to decent fish into the future or if we will have to set up our own fisheries. I have got funding from Pfizer.' She's a cat!

Her brother Fred


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marzgirl


Member

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 5:06pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

Dormouse said:
The phobic thing. There is a lot of truth that much of what you feel is pretty normal, checking the shower, towels, not gong in the garage. And they do sound like an unpleasant crowd of creatures to have about. Your husband is less affected clearly, but I suspect a relatively high number of people would be affected much like you say. I have a feeling I would be - why I have never had an interest in going to Oz or Borneo or the Amazon - the insects/snakes etc.

I guess it is difficult to see what the Behavioural Model means when it says people 'learn to be ill'.

Here it means that the response you have evolved to these threats is learnt because you have learnt that your actions (behaviours) resolve the anxiety in the moment, and what you are reacting to is not so much the creature itself (though you ARE obviously reacting to its unwelcome presence), but that you are responding to *what that creature means to you in terms of how it makes you feel*, and that in response to that feeling you have learnt the responses you have.

I don't want to confuse you further or alarm you, so if that is not making full sense to you we can 'unpick' it a little more presently, if you wish.

And incidentally, what do i get out of making that offer "we can 'unpick' it a little more presently, if you wish"..... I get the opportunity to improve my understanding of the subject matter, and more importantly to me, I get another opportunity to learn how to explain this stuff so it becomes increasingly effective. I get other benefits too eg sense of community and so on. But the raison d'etre is that it improves my practice and it possibly hopefully gives you greater informed choice to act in your interests about resolving the stated difficulty.

Chris

Well, the particular creature that causes the most distress might be because it is the one I had never heard of. So when I first saw it the instant fear of "what the hell is that!" So, in that first instance this became my learned response? My husband went out with a flip flop shoe. I told him, you don't understand, you are going to need something bigger! He went out and looked, came back in got something bigger and the camera! He thought it was a scorpion. I called a friend that was born and raised here and described it. She told me it was not but a non-poisinous relative. She said, now don't you feel better? I said no, still the difference between a flip flop and a New York city phone directory to kill the damn thing!!!!! So why is my reaction so different than my husbands? I don't know. Why am I still scared out of my mind even after finding out it is not poisonous? I dont know. The other weird thing is there are alot of lizards around and they dont bother me at all. Sometimes they startle me when they move fast, but then when I realize what it is, I am ok. I actually wish they where bigger so they could eat bigger bugs. And snakes I am ok at a distance, as long as I know they are not poisonous. It seems my issue is with anything that has more than 4 legs. Another issue I am starting to wonder about is that I am a vegetarian. I am because I just think it is a cruel practice really. I miss it sometimes, the smell of a hotdog makes me miss it. But because I dont like the killing of an animal, I am wondering if I might also be having some sort of guilt about the killing of these creatures, as awful as I think they are and as scared of them as I am. Weird huh?
So that is the one that distresses me the most. There are others that are in fact poisonous and potentially harmful. So if this is something that can be picked apart more so I can understand better, that would be good. The CBT as I am understanding it sounds uncomfortable to me. Does this require me to expose myself to these creatures more in order to show myself that I can handle myself around them? If so that just scares the daylights out of me! Please forgive me is I am not understanding, missing important points, and or getting confused. I am trying to re-read and read slow in the hopes that does not happen. I am glad we can be helping each other with this. You spend alot of your time, I feel guilty sometimes. Knowing you are getting something in return helps.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
~Martin Luther King Jr.~

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marzgirl


Member

Posted Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 5:09pm Post subject: Beta-blockers (anxiety, panic attacks)

Dormouse said:
.

correct - she said she might look at the impact of EU fishing policies on North Sea Haddock levels... I said 'Really, Lucy, that sounds very focussed' and she said 'Well, I want to know if cats will have access to decent fish into the future or if we will have to set up our own fisheries. I have got funding from Pfizer.' She's a cat!

Her brother Fred

Lucy is brilliant!! Let her know I am trying to help with the fish problem. I want to adopt her and Fred. He looks very debonair!

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
~Martin Luther King Jr.~

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