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the bantam menace


Member

Posted Wed Nov 19th, 2008 5:35pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
So the BNP now want to use the European legislation on human rights to go for whoever put the names of its members up on a blog eh? Would this be the same party that want out of Europe?!?! Hahahaha

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joan


Member

Posted Thu Nov 20th, 2008 4:35am Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
Yes, I had a bit of a laugh. These BNP supporters know that their views are shameful, and that the BNP is held in wide contempt, yet still they join.

They have the insight to know they must keep quiet about their membership, but don't have the insight to know they shouldn't join in the first place.

All this proves my theory that the further right the person is, the lower the intelligence and/or conscience.

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Corona


Member

Posted Thu Nov 20th, 2008 4:37pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
I have met people who vote for them. They were not the sort of people i assocaited with but since i have accepted myself as I am they are now my enemy. It is difficult to explain to anyone who is not on there list of "wrong people" but they are ugly inside. I wish I knew what makes some men so angry at everything. I think they have had very very bad childhoods and need some sort of psychitrist or locking up until they get better. I cannot pity them like some people do since they do not have any for anybody else.

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Maxx England


Member

Posted Thu Nov 20th, 2008 5:38pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
I've said it before, these sour souled scum are the adult form of the little horrors that made my schooldays hell on legs. To be honest, I was rather amused by the cry of "Treachery!" As if any of them know about loyalty and decency and the rest of the points of the moral compass.

I'm with Corona on one point, though; what makes them so intellectually and emotionally stunted? Born like it, or part of a subculture of phobic behaviours? I simply cannot understand what makes them hate groups. I reserve the right to violently dislike individuals, but I'll do it because of something specific about that individual, rather than some arbitrary badge of group identity.

Odd notion: how many of them have wives who go to suppliers of the tanning drug, whatever it's trade name is? You know, the one that raises your melanin levels in the skin. I'd be interested to know. Bet they're all by the pool in Majorca every summer. Getting nicely brown.

Don't you just love them?

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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Gayalondiel


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 11:16am Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
However much you dislike them, though, the fact is that the law is the law and under Data Protection legislation they do have the right not to have this information publicised without consent. Just because you don't like their beliefs doesn't make them any less human than anyone else - and ostracising them while criticising them for their attitude towards "different" people seems to me to be a little contradictory.

Furthermore, one of them has allegedly been suspended from his employment following this. If that's the case, he may well have a claim of religious discrimination, given that EC law includes "religious or philosophical system of belief." I don't believe the same thing as the BNP, but I will fight to the death for my right to believe in what I choose and still be able to go to work.

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joan


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 2:23pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
Well, it is always good to have a 'Devil's Advocate' in these matters, and of course the law was broken in respect of BNP members' rights.

But the BNP have no respect for the rights of non-whites to live in UK society in peace and acceptance. I'd hate to be a suspect, for instance, with that copper in attendance, if I had a different colour or a foreign accent. How would a dark skinned child fare in that teacher's class? Without that illegal list exposure, how would anyone know that these authority figures had their own agenda?

It is hard to stick up for the rights of an organisation whose very reason to exist is to threaten the rights of others.

A judge might well find that the BNPs rights had been illegally violated, and charge the offender something like a one penny fine.

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amberzak


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 2:54pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
While I do not agree with what the BNP stand for, I have a fear of where this is heading. There is uproar with certain Students Unions who have tried to kick off members for being BNP. This is NOT right, as a union has no rights to refuse people based on their political views. Now if someone acts on those views (ie, acts in a racist manner) then fine, discaplinaries can be issued and these people can ve faced with exclusion from the union comittees. But the students Union does not have (or at least is not suppost to) its own political view.

This, in my opinion, would be the same as exluding someone for being, say, a hard core dedicated religious person who is closed minded to the rest of the world. They should be represented just the same as everything, and reminded, the same as everyone else, that EVERYONE is as important as each other.

The concern, if we start excluding the BNP, or start naming and shaming, is that they will then be able to protray themselves as the 'persecuted victims', so in effect we are only helping their cause.

I am also concerned of history repeating itself, where people will be accused of being a part of the BNP like they were in the McCathy trials or the 1940 and 50s where people were accused of being communists.

Please don't misunderstand me. I HATE how rasist the BNPs are. The whole 'white only' party really upsets me. But we need to be careful that we are not unwittingly giving them publicity. For hateful forces like them feed of publicity, as, for them, bad publicity is still good publicity, if you get me. They can. and do, twist things.

Hope this makes sense.

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RobertBruce


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 3:20pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
All this proves my theory that the further right the person is, the lower the intelligence and/or conscience.

Phew, luckily I am lefthanded.......

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amberzak


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 3:26pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
All this proves my theory that the further right the person is, the lower the intelligence and/or conscience.

Phew, luckily I am lefthanded.......

I am ambidexurous. (can't spell) so dies tht make me right in the middle

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Gayalondiel


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 3:35pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
Well, it is always good to have a 'Devil's Advocate' in these matters, and of course the law was broken in respect of BNP members' rights.

But the BNP have no respect for the rights of non-whites to live in UK society in peace and acceptance. I'd hate to be a suspect, for instance, with that copper in attendance, if I had a different colour or a foreign accent. How would a dark skinned child fare in that teacher's class? Without that illegal list exposure, how would anyone know that these authority figures had their own agenda?

It is hard to stick up for the rights of an organisation whose very reason to exist is to threaten the rights of others.

A judge might well find that the BNPs rights had been illegally violated, and charge the offender something like a one penny fine.

Well, to start with, I'm not a devil's advocate. I am liberal, and that includes liberal rights for all people, not just the ones who agree with me.

Your examples don't hold water, until the BNP are actually a ruling majority. The reason we have race, gender, age, religion and disability gender is to ensure that people are treated fairly. If a teacher is bullying a child, if a policeman treats a suspect unfairly, then that is illegal and against their business practices, regardless of whether the act is prompted by their political beliefs or by something else. I'll grant you that checks and balances are not perfect, but when you assume that by joining the BNP people are going to mistreat others and misbehave, you are assuming the worst about them just as much as they may about someone who does not fit their stereotype.

To be perfectly blunt, everyone has their own agenda. That's part of being liberal, and one of the hardest things about belief in human rights for all humans, even the ones who don't agree with you. The moment you deny someone a right, you are in principle just as bad as the BNP, because you are defining who does and who does not qualify for those rights.

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amberzak


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 3:45pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
Well, it is always good to have a 'Devil's Advocate' in these matters, and of course the law was broken in respect of BNP members' rights.

But the BNP have no respect for the rights of non-whites to live in UK society in peace and acceptance. I'd hate to be a suspect, for instance, with that copper in attendance, if I had a different colour or a foreign accent. How would a dark skinned child fare in that teacher's class? Without that illegal list exposure, how would anyone know that these authority figures had their own agenda?

It is hard to stick up for the rights of an organisation whose very reason to exist is to threaten the rights of others.

A judge might well find that the BNPs rights had been illegally violated, and charge the offender something like a one penny fine.

Well, to start with, I'm not a devil's advocate. I am liberal, and that includes liberal rights for all people, not just the ones who agree with me.

Your examples don't hold water, until the BNP are actually a ruling majority. The reason we have race, gender, age, religion and disability gender is to ensure that people are treated fairly. If a teacher is bullying a child, if a policeman treats a suspect unfairly, then that is illegal and against their business practices, regardless of whether the act is prompted by their political beliefs or by something else. I'll grant you that checks and balances are not perfect, but when you assume that by joining the BNP people are going to mistreat others and misbehave, you are assuming the worst about them just as much as they may about someone who does not fit their stereotype.

To be perfectly blunt, everyone has their own agenda. That's part of being liberal, and one of the hardest things about belief in human rights for all humans, even the ones who don't agree with you. The moment you deny someone a right, you are in principle just as bad as the BNP, because you are defining who does and who does not qualify for those rights.

Exactly. You put it better than I could.
This is the issue I am having with the NUs who are trying to get rid of members because they are BNP. How can they get rid of people just because of a belief they have. People should only be asked to leave committees etc if they are consistantly breaking rules (by actions) not by their beliefs. Thanks for putting it how you did.

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amberzak


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 3:52pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
And besides, people are racists without being a member of the BNP. Some people are against you if you have a disibility.

Unfortunately, as much as I detest it, racism, agism, sexism and every other ism you can image exsist, and it is not going to go away just by a list being produced of people who belong to a political party.

And the other thing to note is that people who are not BNP are not angels. Those who belong to the BNP have had their addresses leaked out, which instantly puts themselves, and thier familys at risk. I fear for the families.

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 5:13pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
One part of me rejoices and wants to put all BNP, NPD (German) and other racist scum at the pillory, but the other part reminds me that in a democracy everybody should have the same rights. I've often felt angry at our authorities when racists and Neo Nazi scum are allowed yet another demonstration, but they have just the same freedom of expression as we all have (besides, they are usually outnumbered by the thousands by counter demonstrantors). I see the paradoxon behind it - defending the rights of people who threaten to take other peoples' rights away - but I fear there is no easy solution. If we decide that, for example, it's ok to infringe the rights of BNP members, who's next on our lists (since, as amberzak pointed out, you can find racists everywhere)? Yet I think I understand the emotions behind actions like the one mentioned, and I think it's fear - fear that it might one day be too late to stop them. Can we be certain that our liberal societies are strong enough to prevent the rise of right-wing- parties? Infringing their liberal rights can't be the answer.

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Gayalondiel


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 5:44pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
Can we be certain that our liberal societies are strong enough to prevent the rise of right-wing- parties?

In short, no. You can never be certain. But you can remember that the extremes of right- and left- wing tend to be minorities and the real danger to democracy is apathy in the face of a loud minority. I can't remember the quote and I can't remember who said it (might be Mandela) but the thing about "The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing," holds true, but only if you balance it with the knowledge that for the good man to become a bad man in order to defeat the other bad man is to shoot himself in the foot. (No-one said that, except for me, just now, but I think it's true.) The trick is weighing up when things are so terrible that you must contradict your beliefs in order to preserve them. When the Nazis invade Poland is the time: when 100 people on a mailing list of like-minded people get their personal information - and their families' - put up on the internet is not.

ETA: My husband just added this: Even if, philosophically speaking, we could justify taking vindictive action against these people, the law is the law is the law and they are citizens of this country just the same as we are.

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Fri Nov 21st, 2008 7:53pm Post subject: BNP citing infringement of human rights
Can we be certain that our liberal societies are strong enough to prevent the rise of right-wing- parties?

In short, no. You can never be certain. But you can remember that the extremes of right- and left- wing tend to be minorities and the real danger to democracy is apathy in the face of a loud minority. I can't remember the quote and I can't remember who said it (might be Mandela) but the thing about "The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing," holds true, but only if you balance it with the knowledge that for the good man to become a bad man in order to defeat the other bad man is to shoot himself in the foot. (No-one said that, except for me, just now, but I think it's true.) The trick is weighing up when things are so terrible that you must contradict your beliefs in order to preserve them. When the Nazis invade Poland is the time: when 100 people on a mailing list of like-minded people get their personal information - and their families' - put up on the internet is not.

My thoughts precisely - my question was meant rhetorical. The question of *when* and *what* remains a tricky one. "Wehret den Anfängen" (nip things in a bud), as we say in German. For me the moment when an invasion of Poland becomes a possibility seems almost too late.

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