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keymaker


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 12:10am Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
When Brown's undercover inquiry into Iraq gets going I hope it's understood that we in Britain were dismayed to discover that we're on the same side as those who enjoy raping minors in captivity?

km

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 3:03am Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
When Brown's undercover inquiry into Iraq gets going I hope it's understood that we in Britain were dismayed to discover that we're on the same side as those who enjoy raping minors in captivity?

km

I'm not sure who it is you're trying to convince, or confront, so let me start by saying that the American people are probably more dismayed by the horrific things that happened at Abu Ghraib than you are. There are no excuses for such behavior, but I do feel compelled to point out that there are always atrocities in war, this is a fact, and the British are as guilty as anyone else, so please spare us the air of self righteous indignation your post seems to have. If I'm reading your post wrongly, then I apologize in advance, but it seems to me that a glass house may not be the best place from which to make that statement. Perhaps you weren't aware that in 1776 British soldiers were ordered to systematically and brutally rape Americans, many of them children, their own blood, in an attempt to break morale, it's true, you can read about it in many books, and in great detail. I recommend "Revolutionary America 1763-1815 A Political History" by Francis D. Cogliano, though of course there aren't any photos. I guess I've just taken the long way round in saying that y'all were on that side way before we entered the global picture, and while I could go tit for tat with you all night I won't because frankly I've got better things to do with my time, like humming "The Liberty Bell" while racing an imaginary hippo on a scooter, with a pirouetting ballerina on his head.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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keymaker


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 8:43am Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
I'm not sure who it is you're trying to convince or confront...
Convince or confront? No, I was just saying what I personally thought and, as it happens, what appeared to be the mood of others down at my local pub, the Hope & Anchor.

American people are probably more dismayed by the horrific things that happened at Abu Ghraib than you are.
Probably not, I'd say. I believe that persons suspected of rape should be brought to justice whereas in the States they've decided to let 'em off.

the British are as guilty as anyone else, so please spare us the air of self righteous indignation...
I'm not aware of any Briton raping women or minors at gunpoint. As well as being indictable in England rape is a crime against humanity within the jurisdiction of the ICC so it wouldn't be possible to get away with it as US persons can.

Perhaps you weren't aware that in 1776 British soldiers were ordered to systematically and brutally rape Americans
Well, that's not supposed to be treated as a model for hunan behaviour. Under our laws and values persons subjected to rape and torture are entitled to fight against it with all the means at their disposal so it seems to me that we in Britain are on the wrong side with the wrong allies.

km

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PamJH


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 4:10pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
Here's what I can't stand - feeling as if I am being tarnished with the same brush as the Abu Ghraib perpetrators. I do not like being pitched into a collective heap with these folks. One thing we all need to realize is that the "U.S" didn't do this - out-of-control members of the Army did this. Punish the perpetrators, yes. But do not accuse everyone in the U.S. of being on the side "that enjoys raping minors in captivity." I do not know anyone who "enjoys" such a disgusting act.

I would urge you not to be so general in your comments. You say we as individuals couldn't possibly be as dismayed? Well, you couldn't possibly know that.

I do not mean to get all irritable, but that appears to be what has happened. Please forgive me for that.

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keymaker


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 4:36pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
I would urge you not to be so general in your comments.
Okay, I apologise if I came across as criticising all Americans inidividually which, if true, was not intended.

You say we as individuals couldn't possibly be as dismayed? Well, you couldn't possibly know that.
No I was just refuting the suggestion that Americans were 'probably more dismayed'. I thought otherwise because the Americans I've consulted are in favour of non prosecution in a ratio of about 10 : 1. You and I are agreed, I think, that the decision not to prosecute was a mistake.

km

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PamJH


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 4:49pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
I would urge you not to be so general in your comments.
Okay, I apologise if I came across as criticising all Americans inidividually which, if true, was not intended.

You say we as individuals couldn't possibly be as dismayed? Well, you couldn't possibly know that.
No I was just refuting the suggestion that Americans were 'probably more dismayed'. I thought otherwise because the Americans I've consulted are in favour on non prosecution in a ratio of about 10 : 1. You and I are agreed, I think, that the decision not to prosecute was a mistake.

km

I'm glad we can agree on a point or two. But please point me to any information that says that all Abu Ghraib perpetrators were not prosecuted.

And could you please tell me how many Americans you actually spoke to? I've talked about this issue to many, many Americans (as I live there) and without exception they were horrified and wanted these people brought to justice.

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keymaker


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 5:24pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
please point me to any information that says that all Abu Ghraib perpetrators were not prosecuted.
I was saying that the rapes have not been prosecuted which is confirmed by the Telegraph article in my opening post.

please tell me how many Americans you actually spoke to?
Most of 'em are over at MacTech . Then there's President Obama and Maj Gen Taguba referred to in the article as opposed to prosecution and a few Americans I know personally making about 11 in all with only one in favour of prosecution.

km

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Nitro


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 5:41pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
Yes, well I can see that 11 Americans would certainly count as a proper reflection of the opinions of the majority of our millions of citizens X-D

Really? Wow.

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 5:44pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry

Convince or confront? No, I was just saying what I personally thought and, as it happens, what appeared to be the mood of others down at my local pub, the Hope & Anchor.
My reply to your post was more about it's overall tone rather than it's content, and I too felt as though we were all being lumped together.

Probably not, I'd say. I believe that persons suspected of rape should be brought to justice whereas in the States they've decided to let 'em off.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect everyone's opinion. I will reiterate my point that most Americans are probably more dismayed by the actions of their own government than you are simply because it was done in our name so to speak. Full stop. And in the states we do not just let rapists off, that is a very broad generalization.

As for not being aware of Britons raping all I will say on that is you are now, but don't take my word for it, I've provided only 1 source, there are others.

Well, that's not supposed to be treated as a model for hunan behaviour. Under our laws and values persons subjected to rape and torture are entitled to fight against it with all the means at their disposal so it seems to me that we in Britain are on the wrong side with the wrong allies.

km
The example was cited in response to the tone of your post, and maybe to enlighten you just a bit because as I've already said it does have an air of indignation about it. Now whether you intended it that way or not I do not know, but I will say this so you can pass it on to the folks at your local, Americans do NOT condone this sort of behavior.

One more thing, there are a lot of Americans on this forum, and we use the entire forum, not just this board as you seem to do. I will tell you that if you visited other areas of this forum and got to know folks better, you might find that some of your fears about Americans are invalid

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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PamJH


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 6:29pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
According to the Boston Globe, no officer will be held responsible for the crimes committed at Abu Ghraib, which is dismaying to me. Some underlings were charged with crimes. One has been paroled and one is still behind bars. Others were demoted. I agree prosecution should have gone further, but I have no influence on military courts. And I have to say this most recent decision is garnering protest all over the world, including in the United States.

The article in the Christian Science Monitor discusses why it is difficult to prosecute commanding officers.

Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0329/p03s03-usmi.html

Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01.....ndal_ends/

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Nitro


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 7:01pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
Yeah, those poor officers reduced in rank alone will have to retire on a paltry 3G's a month ( by the time they do retire ) X-D Excuse my gallows humor, but I was in the military and if you don't have it there, you're not gonna have it anywhere.

A staff sergeant reduced to buck can work their rank back up much more quickly than an officer can. Most officers are in for the 'career'. I think if you start out as a butter bar and haven't made captain in six years, odds are your 'career' rank isn't going to go very high. I'm just trying to inject a little additional info.

And historically, officers are always treated differently in terms of punishment. It's a much bigger deal for a general, for example, to be busted down to colonel, even full bird colonel, than it is for a staff to get busted to buck. The officer game is one of intense politics. Much more so than for the enlisted folk. And it's kind of a joke that making rank as an enlisted person in the Army only require that you breathe properly X-D

Does this mean those officers shouldn't be held accountable? Well, that's what I'm tyring to inject here. To the military mind/way of thinking, they have been just in getting busted down. Their careers, for the most part, have been derailed quite a bit. No other officers of any importance will want to be publically associated with them ( it might be contagious X-D ).

In a time of war there's only one commander in chief and that's the prez. It could easily be argued that the commanding officer in charge of Abu was simply taking orders from above, much like their enlisted folk. And so on and so on. Now, what are the odds anyone's going to take down the CIC/president during a time of war?

Not very good ones.

Really? Wow.

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keymaker


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 7:17pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
I will reiterate my point that most Americans are probably more dismayed by the actions of their own government than you are simply because it was done in our name so to speak.
Over at MacTech most Americans were arguing for suppression of the evidence and non-prosecution on the grounds of troop safety. That's also President Obama's position of course who in one sense speaks for the nation. On the information available to me at the moment most Americans are opposed to these crimes being prosecuted although I accept that there may be exceptions.

And in the states we do not just let rapists off, that is a very broad generalization.
I wasn't referring to rapes generally but those cited in the article.

As for not being aware of Britons raping all I will say on that is you are now....
Sorry - I'm still not aware... have I missed a link somewhere?

if you visited other areas of this forum and got to know folks better, you might find that some of your fears about Americans are invalid...
Fears? I never said I had any fears about Americans, as a matter of fact I chat with 'em every day of the week. No, I'm just saying that the Iraq report should be receptive to what many people think that Britain should not be fighting on the same side as those who opt out of international constraints and then do nothing adequate about the rape of women and minors in captivity. As I said earlier those who fight against such atrocities are legally and morally in the right.

km

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keymaker


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 7:39pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
I can see that 11 Americans would certainly count as a proper reflection of the opinions of the majority of our millions of citizens
I suppose you could increase the sample by telling us if you favour the suspects being prosecuted?

km

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IdeaCollector


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 8:23pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
Here's an audio response from NPR which is considered to contain less bias than most american media.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5327137

I'll put my voice in for prosecuting anyone involved. It will never happen but I would support it.

But then again people think I'm a conspiracy nut and tbh I'm probably on a list somewhere for disagreeing with the Bush government.

But yes I agree 11 americans most of whom are from one sample group, does not a majority make.

I used to be EternalStudent on these forums until the switch over. So don't get excited..I'm not someone new and exciting. I'm just me :P

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elTweeno


Member

Posted Tue Jun 16th, 2009 8:53pm Post subject: Iraq Inquiry
I'm not aware of any Briton raping women or minors at gunpoint.

OK, seriously, watch the UK news a bit more & broaden the channels/websites/newspapers you use to get your information. Its been reported many times that several British soldiers were involved in those events, and also in events not involving American Troops. Prosecution has been limited at best here.

I'm personally more dismayed at the fact the inquiry will be private - yet another whitewash - and I'm British. I'm sure many Americans also feel that any report into the war and the acts within it should be transparent and public (not sure if any such inquiry is happening in the States, sorry).

I certainly don't think that people's nationality has any bearing on their capability to commit war crimes - whether they're American, British or Martian, its the people that are responsible, regardless of the country they represent in their armed forces.

Just thought another 'British' voice was needed here - we don't all think Americans are all capable of such acts, we love y'all generally!

eT

I'm also on Twitter: elTweeno (of course!)

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