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fryfan20


Member

Posted Fri Jul 11th, 2008 3:19pm Post subject: Richard wagner
what can i say, i like it a lot can't tell why, i just do.
i know that Stephen Fry is a big fan of the man, he is the one that got my to listen to it. for that THANK YOU MR. FRY
i was just wondering: are there more Wagnerian's here?

I am what I am

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Occy


Member

Posted Fri Jul 11th, 2008 3:24pm Post subject: Richard wagner
Bah - Wagner and his Valkyrie's - blergh - far too warlike and soul demanding for me

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fryfan20


Member

Posted Fri Jul 11th, 2008 5:43pm Post subject: Richard wagner
Bah - Wagner and his Valkyrie's - blergh - far too warlike and soul demanding for me

i am painfully aware that there are a lot of people that would agree with you

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Fri Jul 11th, 2008 8:01pm Post subject: Richard wagner
Personally, I find it hard to separate Wagner's horrible personality (and the disgusting Wagner Clan) from his music. I won't go as far as John Eliot Gardiner, who once said that he can neither bear his music nor the man himself. In regards of performance practice it has to be said that Wagner and his epigones did a lot of damage to the works of earlier (romantic) composers, most notably Mendelssohn or Schumann. Yet his works, especially when experienced live in an opera house, have a lot of fantastic moments, and they improve on closer study (e.g. Parzifal), but, as I said, he's not one of my favourites and he's not likely to become one.

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fryfan20


Member

Posted Fri Jul 11th, 2008 9:40pm Post subject: Richard wagner
Personally, I find it hard to separate Wagner's horrible personality (and the disgusting Wagner Clan) from his music. I won't go as far as John Eliot Gardiner, who once said that he can neither bear his music nor the man himself. In regards of performance practice it has to be said that Wagner and his epigones did a lot of damage to the works of earlier (romantic) composers, most notably Mendelssohn or Schumann. Yet his works, especially when experienced live in an opera house, have a lot of fantastic moments, and they improve on closer study (e.g. Parzifal), but, as I said, he's not one of my favourites and he's not likely to become one.

i don't really know very much of the man himself but i heart that he was not very nice indeed but i don't think that is a reason to hate his music.

I am what I am

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IdeaCollector


Member

Posted Fri Jul 11th, 2008 10:24pm Post subject: Richard wagner
I like him...i can separate the man from the music.

In fact the only person I can think of who is completely unforgivable is Bertold Brecht....complete arse who stole 99% of his material.

I used to be EternalStudent on these forums until the switch over. So don't get excited..I'm not someone new and exciting. I'm just me :P

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fryfan20


Member

Posted Fri Jul 11th, 2008 10:39pm Post subject: Richard wagner
i am happy to read that i am not the only one here that likes his music

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wildfire


Member

Posted Fri Jul 11th, 2008 11:41pm Post subject: Richard wagner
Hi Fryfan20, do you like Bach?

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fryfan20


Member

Posted Sat Jul 12th, 2008 12:06am Post subject: Richard wagner
he wildfire
i do like Bach also i like almost all music and am now very much into classical music.

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Sat Jul 12th, 2008 9:33pm Post subject: Richard wagner
I first heard Wagner in various cartoons as a child and liked it and never knew who the composer was or what he was like so that didn't affect my liking for the music. I don't really know much about many composers anyway. I just listen to the music and immerse myself in it and enjoy it. Bach's awesome too.

Assuming direct control...

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fryfan20


Member

Posted Sat Jul 12th, 2008 10:20pm Post subject: Richard wagner
I first heard Wagner in various cartoons as a child and liked it and never knew who the composer was or what he was like so that didn't affect my liking for the music. I don't really know much about many composers anyway. I just listen to the music and immerse myself in it and enjoy it. Bach's awesome too.

i also don't really know very much about composers, i am reading Stephen Fry's incomplete and utterly history of classical music and love it.
but i can not really remember much about names and dates, my brain can't hold on to that kind of information
so i like a lot but I forget who it was most of the time.

I am what I am

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IdeaCollector


Member

Posted Sat Jul 12th, 2008 11:49pm Post subject: Richard wagner
my ex girl friend was studying to be a musicologist so i learned a lot about classical music from her (although after 10 years of piano lessons prior to that and a couple years of classical voice training I had a fair chunk of knowledge already).

funny....still can't listen to some classical music after the way she treated me.

but wagner not one of 'em...she hated wagner.

i'm also a super fan of rachmoninoff b/c we share a birthday.

I used to be EternalStudent on these forums until the switch over. So don't get excited..I'm not someone new and exciting. I'm just me :P

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fryfan20


Member

Posted Sun Jul 13th, 2008 12:10am Post subject: Richard wagner
my ex girl friend was studying to be a musicologist so i learned a lot about classical music from her (although after 10 years of piano lessons prior to that and a couple years of classical voice training I had a fair chunk of knowledge already).

funny....still can't listen to some classical music after the way she treated me.

but wagner not one of 'em...she hated wagner.

i'm also a super fan of rachmoninoff b/c we share a birthday.

i don't know rachmoninoff but will look it up some time
i'm sorry that she was so bad to you and that she destroyed the joy of classical music for you.
it is a good thing she hated wagner then.

I am what I am

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IdeaCollector


Member

Posted Sun Jul 13th, 2008 12:37am Post subject: Richard wagner
she didn't destroy all classical music but she did tarnish a few of the lesser knowns for me.

I used to be EternalStudent on these forums until the switch over. So don't get excited..I'm not someone new and exciting. I'm just me :P

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Dewin Cymraeg


Member

Posted Thu Jun 3rd, 2010 8:57am Post subject: Richard wagner

I watched Stephen's programme on Wagner last night via iPlayer.

I've loved Wagner's music since I was 17 (I'm now 39), so I have thought a lot about Wagner, his music and how his legacy has been used for political ends.

I understand, of course, that Stephen would want to discuss Hitler's use of Wagner's music. It saddens me, though, that a programme that is trying to inform people about Wagner spends so much time discussing Nazis and anti-semitism that it doesn't have time left for Wagner's life and works.

Anyone who knows Wagner's music also knows that none of his works are about anti-semitism. Anti-semitism was not core to Wagner's life and works. He certainly perpetuated the myth, via his essay about Jews in music, that Jews were somehow lesser beings. There is no doubt that he had an axe to grind and that he had some kind of pathological hatred, maybe due to the way he was treated when trying to establish himself as an composer in Paris, where Meyerbeer treated him appallingly, steeling some of Wagner's musical ideas. Paris opera was run by people who were Jewish, and Wagner felt that he was not invited to the party because he was not Jewish. There was no mention that Wagner thought that he might be descended from Jews. (That is not in any way to justify Wagner's stance, merely to give it context).

In the programme, there was no mention of Cosima, Wagner's second wife, at all. There was no mention of his relationship with Liszt (Cosima's father) or Nietzsche. There was no mention of the leitmotif!

But what gets me more than anything is that there was no mention of Schopenhauer. To understand Wagner's later works (especially Tristan), you have to know how Schopenhauer completely changed Wagner's world-view. Schopenhauer turned Wagner from a political idealist (as seen in The Ring, which is mostly about Anarchsim) into a philosophical pessimist. In Schopenhauer's philosophy, life is suffering and death is fulfilment. That's what "Tristan und Isolder" is about.

It seems to me that talking about Nazis is not programme about Wagner, but a programme about how Nazis used Wagner's music for political ends. I think it's also worth saying that this was not successful - most of Hitler's contemporaries in the Nazi party were not fond of Wagner and only attended Wagner's operas because they were forced to. Wagner's music was not particularly popular in Germany generally. Wagner was not seen as a 'German' composer in the way that Elgar is seen as a 'British' composer. And just as most people in Britain couldn't tell you anything about Elgar (but would recognise the tune to Land of Hope and Glory), ordinary people in Germany didn't really know anything about Wagner, and would probably only recognise the Ride of the Valkyries.

It seems to me that the programme is itself perpetuating a modern myth: that Wagner somehow created Hitler's anti-semitism and through his works influenced the direction of Nazism. Wagner's music is intoxicating, and Hitler was certainly intoxicated. But Wagner did not create anti-semitism in Germany. He did not create Nazism.

People always take from great art what they want to see there. That is not the fault of the artist. Politics in particular will use art to its own end.


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