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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 3:45am Post subject: "We the people..."

I'm so tired of folks citing the inadequacies of our government as their argument against revamping our dilapidated, ineffective health care system, and using the NHS system as the bad guy model. It's true that our government run Veterans Administration and Medicare are in a horrible state, but doesn't that make "we the people" complicit as enablers for not holding our own government accountable? Our system blows, full stop. These private health insurance companies teeter on the edge of what I consider to be criminal activity because they have folks over a barrel and they know it. If being the "Land the Free" is what allows them to get away with it all, then that same freedom also empowers us to put a stop to it. Criticizing and looking at the NHS, or any other system is pointless as we should be looking to ourselves to accomplish this urgently needed overhaul because to quote AxmxZ "No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick." It's time to stop dragging our feet, enough is enough.

That's my rant...for now.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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j9r


Member

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 4:05am Post subject: "We the people..."

I so agree with your rant. As a child I was a member of the uninsured and it nearly killed me because I was never vaccinated and contracted Rubella with the fun complication of encepholitus. And much of the time of my illness I was at home because we really couldn't afford a hospital. Now I have very good insurance and yet I still have issues medical system because it is run by businessman trying to manipulate their stock price with my health coverage.

I truly believe the whole system needs redone. Any infrastructure industry should not be for profit, be it health care, highways, power, water, etc.

That is my rant.

---j

"I'm from New Jersey, if the world ended today, I'd adjust" - John Gorka

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joan


Member

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 6:18am Post subject: "We the people..."

The land of the free? I think we have more freedom here in Australia, including the freedom to get very sick while very poor, and still get top level treatment. We have free speech here, and freedom to live our lives as we see fit, but we also have a social welfare system that works well, without a ratbag Right whinging and carrying on and calling it 'socialism'. We also have very little religiosity, and many of our MPs are atheists without it affecting their electablility.

I think Obama should point out that a universal health care system is far more cost-effective (there are plenty of stats to prove this) than a patchwork private system. He should also confirm that people can continue to be in private funds if they choose, and he should offer them tax relief if they do so. Surely cost-effectiveness is something the right wing and business world approve of??


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IdeaCollector


Member

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 7:16am Post subject: "We the people..."

This issue is really close to my heart as I am about to be taken off private insurance through my father's work b/c I"m too old. I'll never get good coverage again b/c I have a pretty serious pre-existing condition.

I could write a novel about it but in the end it will make me feel horridly sad. The only thing I can post that doesn't make me sad is the following bits of info.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4967/outrageous.jpg

and the following is something I found on twitter...

Idea: Rename the health bill the American Legislative Insurance For Everyone act. Because what Republican could vote against American LIFE?

I used to be EternalStudent on these forums until the switch over. So don't get excited..I'm not someone new and exciting. I'm just me :P

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gjhsu


Moderator

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 3:40pm Post subject: "We the people..."

I for one, see the point and the good in a public option. I don't understand why it's not more popular. It works in other countries (sorry for looking at other countries, by the way), and has been proven again and again as a system that, at its core, at least works.

The argument I've heard is that it is so anti-capitalist, but in my eye, there is no room for capitalism when people's health and people's lives are at stake. The aim for the health insurance companies right now is NOT to make people better, it never has been. It's to turn a profit. It's a business, and that is their only reason for existing. If they can't turn a profit, they get out of the business, or do what it takes to become profitable, including dropping people's coverage, which to me is so morally and ethically insane as to want to scream loudly into the ground.

At least a government-run system would by definition be non-profit, and coverage would be for anyone and everyone who is sick. I view health care as a human right, not a privilege, especially in this day and age.

Also consider, the healthier that everyone is, the higher the probability that they can be working and producing and turning those profits. (Yes, I am fully aware that there are still bums out there that refuse to work, but if the borderline population who COULD be working if they weren't sick were suddenly able due to being made well, that's a lot of folks back in the workforce). Heigh ho, nobody listens to me anyway.


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Maxx England


Member

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 5:01pm Post subject: "We the people..."

Where do the fundamentalist American Christians stand on this issue? Surely they, above all people, believe "I am my brother's keeper". Or are there exclusions of the same halt, sick and lame that Jesus is suppose to have gone among?

Because I understand the European style health care schemes stem not from Socialism/Communism, but a tradition of enlightened capitalism. The enlightenment, it is my understanding, having come from Christian moral teachings.

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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IdeaCollector


Member

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 7:46pm Post subject: "We the people..."

Maxx I really don't like it when you speak in derogatory tones about Christianity on so many subjects...the health care issue here in the U.S. is more a party division than anything. Fundamentalist Christians can be found in both parties so they are on both sides of the debate.

I'm sorry that Christianity apparently has upset you before or continues to upset you but I don't rant about what atheists do b/c groups can't be defined by one position.

There are christians on both sides of every debate that rages in this country from gay rights to taxes to health care to etc.

I used to be EternalStudent on these forums until the switch over. So don't get excited..I'm not someone new and exciting. I'm just me :P

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Maxx England


Member

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 8:47pm Post subject: "We the people..."

I'm not being derogatory, I just wanted to know what an admittedly amorphous body of people felt, at least in general terms, about their collective duty of care under the terms of Christian belief. I have nothing at all against people who believe and live by genuine deep seated values of care as laid down by Jesus.

Where's the derogatory meaning in any of that?

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Sat Sep 5th, 2009 11:35pm Post subject: "We the people..."

gjhsu said:
I for one, see the point and the good in a public option. I don't understand why it's not more popular. It works in other countries (sorry for looking at other countries, by the way), and has been proven again and again as a system that, at its core, at least works.

I should clarify that I don't mean we shouldn't consider the systems in other countries, I'm just tired of folks using what they think those other systems are like as the reason for their argument against, especially when those arguments are poorly made using scare tactics instead of facts, and socialism is a scare tactic. I believe a public option is needed and it disturbs me to think that this opposition is purely greed driven.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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michael


Member

Posted Sun Sep 6th, 2009 5:47pm Post subject: "We the people..."

i think idea collector's posted cartoon says everything

"HELLO I'M TACTILE !" is an anagram of my name

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Sun Sep 6th, 2009 5:52pm Post subject: "We the people..."

michael said:
i think idea collector's posted cartoon says everything

It sure does, which is exactly why I don't understand what the problem is, and why there's so much opposition. 3 trillion and counting!

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Sun Sep 6th, 2009 6:49pm Post subject: "We the people..."

This was sent to me in email:

"Becoming Illegal (Actual letter from an Iowa resident and sent to his senator)

The Honorable Tom Harkin
731 Hart Senate Office Building
Phone (202) 224 3254
Washington DC, 20510

Dear Senator Harkin,

As a native Iowan and excellent customer of the Internal Revenue Service, I am writing to ask for your assistance. I have contacted the Department of Homeland Security in an effort to determine the process for becoming an illegal alien and they referred me to you.

My primary reason for wishing to change my status from U.S. Citizen to illegal alien stems from the bill which was recently passed by the Senate and for which you voted. If my understanding of this bill's provisions is accurate, as an illegal alien who has been in the United States for five years, all I need to do to become a citizen is to pay a $2,000 fine and income taxes for three of the last five years. I know a good deal when I see one and I am anxious to get the process started before everyone figures it out.

Simply put, those of us who have been here legally have had to pay taxes every year so I'm excited about the prospect of avoiding two years of taxes in return for paying a $2,000 fine. Is there any way that I can apply to be illegal retroactively? This would yield an excellent result for me and my family because we paid heavy taxes in 2004 and 2005.

Additionally, as an illegal alien I could begin using the local emergency room as my primary health care provider. Once I have stopped paying premiums for medical insurance, my accountant figures I could save almost $10,000 a year.

Another benefit in gaining illegal status would be that my daughter would receive preferential treatment relative to her law school applications, as well as 'in-state' tuition rates for many colleges throughout the United States for my son.

Lastly, I understand that illegal status would relieve me of the burden of renewing my driver's license and making those burdensome car insurance premiums. This is very important to me given that I still have college age children driving my car.

If you would provide me with an outline of the process to become illegal (retroactively if possible) and copies of the necessary forms, I would be most appreciative. Thank you for your assistance.

Your Loyal Constituent, (hoping to reach 'illegal alien' status rather than just a bona fide citizen of the USA)

Donald Ruppert

Burlington, IA

Call your Internal Revenue Service at 1-800-289-1040.
(Please pass this on to your friends so they can save on this great offer.)"

I didn't begin this thread to complain about illegal aliens, but this letter is a great example of the absurdity regarding our priorities.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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Nitro


Member

Posted Sun Sep 6th, 2009 11:34pm Post subject: "We the people..."

Part of the problem is that adminstrators of various 'sytstem's are appointed by the politicians we elect. So, if you're going to vote for someone - check out who they have in mind for various positions.

Another part of the problem is the insurance industry, regardless of what type or how many types of policies they underwrite, ( and this is especially true of Workmens Compensation btw - considered the 'Wild West' of insurance ), has very handsomely paid lobbyists inserting themselves into relationships with federal and state politicians, wineining and dineing them to no end, that ensure their interests are covered. In essence, the insurance industry as a whole is very unregulated by our government. It's a vicious circle.

BTW, when President Obama was still a candidate, he railed against a man he said was one of the problems with the health insurance situation. Then, after becoming president, appointed the guy to help run things.

Go figure. My guess is, every politician makes a living by compromising ad nauseum and/or otherwise outright lieing to their constituants.

Really? Wow.

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Tue Sep 8th, 2009 10:35pm Post subject: "We the people..."

So the latest on health care reform is the "trigger", in other words if the private insurance sector does not reform in a way that's expected they will trigger a public option, sort of a measure to keep private insurance in line. FFS git er done!

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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Nitro


Member

Posted Wed Sep 9th, 2009 5:00am Post subject: "We the people..."

Well, the sad bit is that any 'loss' the insurance sector feels it might take as a result of options, it will simply pass on to the employer with higher rates. Which will get passed on to the employees, of course.

Really? Wow.

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