Topic RSS | Reply to topic
Author Post

Maxx England


Member

Posted Thu Aug 20th, 2009 3:04pm Post subject: Wife-starving

At the risk of starting yet another section of heated discussion, I have to say that some internet contact I have with Americans displays somewhat "old fashioned" attitudes among a number of males; I would ask that those of you in America realise and accept that there are quite substantial stretches of the world outside it (y'all know, that little place off'n the coast ) that have decent and egalitarian cultures kindly disposed towards all of their populace.

Example: immigrant communities and the veil. Never mind our own women, most British men are offended not just by a gross intrusion of a foreign cultural marker, but by the fact that any individual should be required to hide their face as if they were some sort of inferior creature. This is the country my father and his generation fought to keep free, and those that followed them really do believe, in their hearts, that no one should be denied the right to walk with the sun on their face unless they have actually committed a criminal act and been convicted of it.

Perhaps we could have some European comments on the subject of oppression, laws, cultural attitudes please? Wo bist der Deutsches?

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

Back to top

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Fri Aug 21st, 2009 2:35am Post subject: Wife-starving

I hate what men have historically done to women - not all men - perhaps not even most men - but (most ) women are just kinder and got a better idea about how the world works

just a personal opinion

christopher


Back to top

TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Fri Aug 21st, 2009 5:10am Post subject: Wife-starving

I would ask that folks who use sweeping generalisation and erroneous presumption realize and accept that this often does more to show the ignorance of the issuer than that of anyone else.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

Back to top

katysara


Moderator

Posted Fri Aug 21st, 2009 7:08pm Post subject: Wife-starving

Good answer Tobes. Saves me the bother.

I am an administrator on this site.

"Having a great intellect is no path to being happy."
~ Stephen Fry

See my website: www.katysaraculling.com

Back to top

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Fri Aug 21st, 2009 7:47pm Post subject: Wife-starving

Tbh I am not really sure who that is a good answer to - i mean i tend to agree - and don't really consider my post to be a "sweeping generalisation and erroneous presumption" and don't really think you do - but i am not sure, so perhaps you could illuminate this a bit, if you could.

I wrote:

"I hate what men have historically done to women - not all men - perhaps not even most men..."

I mean, i do - you can't argue with that, it's an opinion that i hold personally - doesn't mean it is right, and i am not saying it is - that's why it is an opinion (democracy etc) - plenty of evidence for what men have done to women compared to vice versa .... and i don't generalise it to 'most men'

" - but (most) women are just kinder and got a better idea about how the world works"

(i could add "in my experience most women are kinder [than men] and after all I am a man and understand what drives men in terms of kindness...)

Think it is pretty obvious that women have a better idea about how the world works because they bear children, something beypond my experience... and apart from that when did a woman ever start a war (Th*tch doesn't count cos she was barely h****n) .... ahem... and any way it is an opinion and stated so.

On reflection it would be equally real to direct your comment plural to whoever it is meant to be directed at.

Just an opinion.

Very abrasive these other threads to outsiders aren't they imo dont you think

Chris

"just a personal opinion"


Back to top

Britannicus


Member

Posted Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 3:31am Post subject: Wife-starving

It is rather interesting to think about the differences that may exist between how men and women view the world... Especially when you consider the different cultural roles throughout the world. I disagree that women are kinder than men, though. From my own experience, the women tended to be the most openly critical of others, especially of other women (not always true, but usually). And as for wars – as much as I would love to say that women are inherently more peaceful, I tend to think that it has more to do with opportunity than it does with something inborn. Historically, women haven’t had as much opportunity as men to play big roles in conflicts such as wars. There’s argument that women have a stronger capacity for empathy than men. But it is ideas that often create wars, and women and men are equally corruptible by a bad idea. The number of female politicians is rising, but the wars are almost certainly going to continue, and something tells me that some will be at the order of a woman.

"Your room...it's CLEAN!!!"
"I prayed to God...and...it happened...but...where's my million dollars and horse!? Damn it!"

Back to top

TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 7:24am Post subject: Wife-starving

On reflection it would be equally real to direct your comment plural to whoever it is meant to be directed at.
Chris

"just a personal opinion"

This you've assumed because my post follows yours? No Chris you've got it wrong, re-read please. I stand by what I've written, it's "realness" and mine are both guaranteed.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

Back to top

katysara


Moderator

Posted Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 3:38pm Post subject: Wife-starving

I'd rather have sent this by PM but they aren't working...

Dormouse,

My "good answer" was directed at toby's response to Maxx, because of the idea that all Americans are unaware that the rest of the world exists comment is bullshit, it had nothing to do with you. I thought it obvious as it followed directly from post to post.

Chris please don't think i am out to get you, i really am not

ksx

I am an administrator on this site.

"Having a great intellect is no path to being happy."
~ Stephen Fry

See my website: www.katysaraculling.com

Back to top

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 7:17pm Post subject: Wife-starving

Britannicus said:
It is rather interesting to think about the differences that may exist between how men and women view the world... Especially when you consider the different cultural roles throughout the world. I disagree that women are kinder than men, though. From my own experience, the women tended to be the most openly critical of others, especially of other women (not always true, but usually). And as for wars – as much as I would love to say that women are inherently more peaceful, I tend to think that it has more to do with opportunity than it does with something inborn. Historically, women haven’t had as much opportunity as men to play big roles in conflicts such as wars. There’s argument that women have a stronger capacity for empathy than men. But it is ideas that often create wars, and women and men are equally corruptible by a bad idea. The number of female politicians is rising, but the wars are almost certainly going to continue, and something tells me that some will be at the order of a woman.

.
there are some views there i definately hadn't thought about - thanks


Back to top

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 7:19pm Post subject: Wife-starving

Ksx -nthats alright i am still knacked out and fractious from loads of squawking and take things at more than what ids said - but i learn


Back to top

Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 7:21pm Post subject: Wife-starving

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

take your words of wisdom if i may


Back to top

Maxx England


Member

Posted Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 8:39pm Post subject: Wife-starving

katysara said:
I'd rather have sent this by PM but they aren't working...

Dormouse,

My "good answer" was directed at toby's response to Maxx, because of the idea that all Americans are unaware that the rest of the world exists comment is bullshit, it had nothing to do with you. I thought it obvious as it followed directly from post to post.

Chris please don't think i am out to get you, i really am not

ksx

I only tease; I do know that those from the far side of the water who come here are aware of the world outside.

Although I do ask the question, do Americans, as much as any of us, see the world through a broad cultural perspective? My viewpoint is that of a working class English liberal of middle years, with all the influences and results of them in glorious evidence. As with everyone else, I am the sum of my experiences, how could it be otherwise?

If someone perceives the hand of Man universally smothering Woman, is this the result of an individual's experience in many places, or are they referring to a specific locale and extrapolating that viewpoint to encompass the whole world?

As an example, the health insurance thread on Big Road Blues shows several differing viewpoints within America, some of which appear to display little or no knowledge of how successful or unsuccessful state/social health schemes are in the world outside America:

http://bigroadblues.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10163

7 pages and growing by the day.

If anyone here wants to call me a stirrer, fine, but I'd rather be judged as an agent provocateur, stirring up that most demonic of phantasms, thought.

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

Back to top

TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 12:22am Post subject: Wife-starving

Although I do ask the question, do Americans, as much as any of us, see the world through a broad cultural perspective? My viewpoint is that of a working class English liberal of middle years, with all the influences and results of them in glorious evidence. As with everyone else, I am the sum of my experiences, how could it be otherwise?
As an example, the health insurance thread on Big Road Blues shows several differing viewpoints within America, some of which appear to display little or no knowledge of how successful or unsuccessful state/social health schemes are in the world outside America

I would say yes that many more Americans than perhaps you realize do see the world from a broad cultural perspective, after all as Americans we come from a broad cultural make up. Ignorance issues do exist of course and will continue to do so, but no more than in Europe, where I've traveled extensively.

I'm going to digress a tiny bit here, because I think it's an interesting observation given the direction this has taken. I grew up alongside friends with whom I remain close today, and our parents are all close friends. The common denominator we had as kids was that our parents were English. We joke about having been raised in an English colony and it's true that our parents seemed to have circled their wagons, but it's equally true that they opened up and embraced the new culture they were experiencing and brought to it their own, further enriching both. That's my experience and because of it my perception is that while we may have problems, the US is so diverse that it may actually be more suited to absorb new cultures better than most.

As far as the health insurance debacle goes, that forum is a weak example to use Maxx. If you want to play you've got to ante up first. It's easy to post a link to another forum as if to say look they don't get it. Do you know everything about our system, do you understand the arguments for and against, and do you understand why the very phrase "socialized medicine" might get the hackles of some folks up? I wonder if they're linking your posts somewhere else and laughing.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

Back to top

Maxx England


Member

Posted Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 4:22pm Post subject: Wife-starving

Tobias, will you read this first, and then explain things gently to me? I am not an adversary, opponent or enemy, I just say what I see about the world arond me, based on all information available to me (and please accept the viewpoint is that of the above old blue collar liberal, born into a caring society with a limited socialist infrastructure):

I freely admit I know nothing detailed of the "socialized medicine" debate; and I very much am baffled by an apparent national phobia about anything to do in the slightest with socialism in any form. It appears, from this shore, as if many Americans (most? I don't know, you are best placed to say) are convinced that if any form of state control is placed upon anything, there will immediately be a breakdown of law and order, Russians will fly in overnight, and you will all be herded into work camps without your Chevies. I apologise if this in some way offends you, but the anti socialist voice from your side of the water is so loud.

And why should hackles be raised particularly by socialized medicine? I'm not looking for a fight, I'm looking for information.

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

Back to top

TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 6:48pm Post subject: Wife-starving

Maxx England said:
Tobias, will you read this first, and then explain things gently to me? I am not an adversary, opponent or enemy, I just say what I see about the world arond me, based on all information available to me (and please accept the viewpoint is that of the above old blue collar liberal, born into a caring society with a limited socialist

I will try Maxx, but I should tell you first that it's a multi-faceted problem and I can only give you my take on it, and I'll do so by trimming a lot of the fat. Most, if not all Americans would agree that our country needs to overhaul the health care system, the larger concerns of this debate are public vs private, the quality of care,and how to pay for it all.

To get a feel for where this anti-socialism attitude comes from we have to remember that this country was founded by the likes of Thomas Jefferson who said:

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

In other words, less government. Americans by the way actually have 2 governments, their individual state governments and the Federal government, so I believe some folks just interpret the government becoming involved in this private arena as the beginning of a slippery slope. Our government/taxes already pay for education, military etc, and now health care, what's next? There's still a cold war attitude, especially among some baby boomers who were taught to believe that socialism = communism, and in the worst case scenario they may be right about that. I should probably add here that these are not my own views, but do you see where I'm going with all of this? Now, Americans already pay taxes for Medicare(a mess), which sees to medical care for the elderly and disabled, and the Veterans Administration which is supposed to provide medical care to our veterans(bigger mess), but these systems aren't working the way they should, and are running out of money, so, if the government can't manage those then why would anyone be comfortable with them running the whole show? Again these are not my personal views, but they are valid considerations.

Most health care in our country is from the private sector, and Americans can receive private health care insurance through their employer at a reduced rate, if they can afford it. The ones who can't, and the unemployed usually go without insurance and when they have a medical need they go to a hospital emergency room, which of course they can't afford to pay for, creating medical debt. Here is an example of what our private insurers are getting away with,
I pay approximately $17,000. per yr, with deductibles for my family's private medical insurance, and only 80% of medical costs are covered, and any pre-existing medical conditions are excluded from our coverage.

Now I'm going to give you the abridged version of my opinion about the whole sorry mess. There is no reason at all for any American to go without health care,and I don't care if it's private or public as long as the quality of care is not impacted, and the pre-existing illness nonsense is done away with. I hasten to add that when Americans here about y'all waiting months for a doctors appointment we are astounded and appalled. We could easily pay for all of this if we make the necessary cutbacks on the many, many unnecessary expenses. This is a crisis and it's reparation is vital to the reparation of our economy. Again public or private, doesn't matter to me as long as there is adequate regulation.

Dos that help any? I know I've left stuff out, but it would probably require a novella length post, the current proposed health care bill is more than 1000 pages!

Maxx, it would be inadvisable to suggest to a room full of Texans, let alone Americans, the thought of being herded anywhere. Them are fightin' words and one would find out very quickly just how many firearms are actually in that room, being wielded by folks who know how to use 'em.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

Back to top