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nongenderous


Member

Posted Wed May 28th, 2008 11:37pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
First "woman", then "human". Maybe even an "object". Judged on the phone because my voice isn't deep. I'm just fed up with the world and its misogyni. I'm tired of reading about women and girls who are being raped and sexually abused. What I don't understand is why men and boys get away with this behavior and why no one tell them it's wrong. That's the impression I get. That's the reason why I consider myself a feminist, because I can't take it anymore. I have positive work experiences from a male dominated work place, but not everyone is that lucky. I just wish that I could change the world and its attitude. People shouldn't be treated different because of their biological sex. Stereotypes pisses me off more than anything and I'm fed up with media and its view on women. They have to be skinny and pretty. The brain doesn't count. Men can be fat and have wrinkles. It won't hurt their career. There's more plastic surgery than ever and the world is sick. Sick, because it doesn't allow 50 % of the population the same rights as the other 50 %. It's been like this for so long, but I doubt it'll happen in my lifetime. I haven't got much power, but my heart wants to change the world. Make it a better place and help victims of vicious crimes. I want to do something good. Even my favorite shows (read: "QI") makes me angry because of the under-representation of women. This is 2008, not 1958. You'd expect some changes. I'm tired of seeing one sex represent the whole goddamn world, speaking for the whole goddamn world and dominate the whole world. The post in the QI forum didn't get a lot of responses. I may be a Stephen Fry fan, but I don't agree with everything he does or says, and I'm not afraid to express my opinion. I'd respect comedians like him more if they spoke out against violence and didn't invite Johnny Vegas to "QI". I'd really like to know who decides to be the guest on "QI", because I really hate the thought of Johnny Vegas after what he did to the poor girl. I really hope Stephen Fry doesn't defends him, because I'd probably lose all my respect for him if he did, and my fandom would die a quick, but painful death.
It's Quite Interesting that men are the ones who gets to show that they are funny. Women love humor and having a good laugh, but we're not considered to be funny. It's the man's job. The music business stinks of sexism. That's one of the reasons I quit reading music magazines. How many times do you need to be told that Beatles is the best band ever (they're not), and that "OK Computer" is the best album of the 90s, ever, in the whole world. Music festivals are dominated by male acts, and women are again under-represented. If a female rock musician acts like so many rock musicians have done before, she's really bad and horrible. Music critics judge women for their looks, and not the music. Pop music is labeled as something you can't like and is being viewed as feminine. Rock music is masculine and much better. I like to think of anything you can sing along to as pop music. Something that you can dance to. Motörhead is catchy, so it's pop music. Female artists are not compared to male artists with similar music, but to other women. They don't have to have anything in common at all (but the vagina is crucial). If a female artist plays the piano she is going to be compared to Tori Amos, and if she plays a guitar she's compared to PJ Harvey.
This post may make me a bitchy feminist, but I don't care. I see it as a compliment rather than an insult.
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fryfan20


Member

Posted Thu May 29th, 2008 10:35am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
i understand your anger, it is not fair that women are still don't seen as equal.
personal i don't have so much trouble with it because i don't think that people in my environment think of my as less because i am a women (they have i think enough other reasons to think less of my).

i don't think that stephen invites less women on QI on purpose, he just does not seem that kind of man.

I am what I am

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Thu May 29th, 2008 3:32pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
So many many good points raised January Heart.

Not so long back I read a book called 'Where the Girls Are: Growing Up Female with the Mass Media' by Susan J. Douglas. In it she talked about how when popular culture is every looked back upon whether by magazines, books or analysed in other forms it's always what's created by males that is valued as being 'worthy' while anything by females that is discarded as 'meaningless', 'empty' and 'disposable' (the main example used was like yours that of male dominated rock versus pop being regarded as more feminine). Why is this? I once read in a music magazine, Q I think that males who want to be in a rock band are straight while males who want to be in a pop group are gay. mmm.

I saw in a Metro that there's going to be a rock festival with only female bands performing. But it's in London so a babillion miles from here. Still it's awesome they're doing that. They're doing it because of how festivals are usually dominated by males.

I am so tired of gender stereotypes. I'm sick and tired of hearing idiots say that women have rubbish taste in films and music which is blatently not true.

Assuming direct control...

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nongenderous


Member

Posted Thu May 29th, 2008 5:02pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I read that the most loved celebrities in the UK were male (Stephen Fry was amongst them. Well deserved), but women topped the hate list (Amy Winehouse and Paul McCartney's ex; I can't remember her name). I've also read about street harassment of women, which was very disturbing (read the comments): http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/05/hands_up_if_you
I've always lived in small towns, and I'm not out partying every weekend, maybe that's why. If anything happened to me I'm sure I would report it.
I've also noticed in Norwegian papers that grown up and young women are referred to as "girls", and boys in their teens are referred to as "men". Something is very wrong.

The book you mentioned, Amyl, sounds very interesting and I want to read that book. I'm done with all my exams, so now I can read other books without feeling guilty of not reading the syllabus.

Stereotypes makes me sick. The notion that all women love Bridget Jones, only care about clothes and make up, and the rubbish taste in music. Women are as different as men. I'm sure not all men enjoy action movies, or get drunk every weekend or watch sport. I spend almost no money on clothes, but most of my money on music, dvds, and of course books. I love collecting and I'm quite proud of my collection of vinyl records and cds. I have no interest in the womens magazines, with all the commercials and brain dead information on how to attract a man. I'm more interested in politics, esp. international politics.

Reading music magazines is just depressing. How many interviews with the members of Led Zeppelin does one need? Is a guitar what makes a band good? They may only know three chords, but it has got a guitar and the lead singer is a man. When men point out were are all the good female bands, I think; maybe some gave up because of the sexism in the business. If there were more female journalists, maybe that would help, or among those who choose bands for the big festival, and people would notice them and they wouldn't be ignored. My music collection consist of several female artists, and are quite dominating compared to male artists (esp. male solo artists). When people claim there aren't any good female artists, it's just crap. The media seem to care more about the male artists and take them more serious.

Many of the female artists seem to make a career on their own without a big record company. Several have their own record companies. The Swedish pop artist Robyn left BMG, and started her own label. She's now successful on her own and more artistic creativity and control. She's even been on "Letterman".

Madonna gets called a bitch, because she's rich and successful. I may not agree with everything she does, but she's very intelligent and knows what she's doing. Same for Kylie Minogue (though her career is different). You don't stay in the spotlight for over 20 years without knowing what you are doing.
People like Perez Hilton mock female celebrities for a living, but he isn't very attractive. The double standard is sickening. Just look at all the crap that's been written about Lily Allen (among several others).

Several male artists don't evolve artistically. Rolling Stones is an example. I'm sure people only pay insane amounts of money to listen to their old songs. No one critique them their wrinkles, or Lemmy from Motörhead for his disgusting warts.
Marianne Faithfull has got a successful career, but people still talk about that she was a "groupie" in the 60s. She is amazing. Her version of "Pirate Jenny" is stunning, and I believe every word she sings.
Many of the artists of today are inspired by Kate Bush, but she doesn't get mentioned as often in the music magazines as certain other male artists.
I know she doesn't really like the spotlight and might appear as some sort of recluse, but she is important. She produced her best albums by herself and gained control over her music quite early in her career. Her music is not like anything else in the world and "The Ninth Wave" is the best concept album (not strictly an album, but the second half of the "Hounds Of Love" album) that ever was.
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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Thu May 29th, 2008 5:38pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I read that the most loved celebrities in the UK were male (Stephen Fry was amongst them. Well deserved), but women topped the hate list (Amy Winehouse and Paul McCartney's ex; I can't remember her name).

That doesn't surprise me. Women seem to be just there to look pretty and sexy, not for their talent or brains.

I've also read about street harassment of women, which was very disturbing (read the comments): http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/05/hands_up_if_you
I've always lived in small towns, and I'm not out partying every weekend, maybe that's why. If anything happened to me I'm sure I would report it.
I've also noticed in Norwegian papers that grown up and young women are referred to as "girls", and boys in their teens are referred to as "men". Something is very wrong.

There is something very wrong. Girls are also becoming more sexualised at a younger and younger age. I have heard girls as young as five and six saying things they shouldn't even know about. The toys don't help like those ugly Bratz dolls that look like hookers more than anything.

The book you mentioned, Amyl, sounds very interesting and I want to read that book. I'm done with all my exams, so now I can read other books without feeling guilty of not reading the syllabus.

It's a very good book. The stuff on advertising is particularly interesting.

Stereotypes makes me sick. The notion that all women love Bridget Jones, only care about clothes and make up, and the rubbish taste in music. Women are as different as men. I'm sure not all men enjoy action movies, or get drunk every weekend or watch sport. I spend almost no money on clothes, but most of my money on music, dvds, and of course books. I love collecting and I'm quite proud of my collection of vinyl records and cds. I have no interest in the womens magazines, with all the commercials and brain dead information on how to attract a man. I'm more interested in politics, esp. international politics.

I know. Not all men are interested in football yet when you go shopping you'd almost think that was the case. Especially when you look at gift sections and card shops. It's all cars, booze, DIY, footbal and gold. It's just as annoying for women. All cute fluffy animals, mobile phones, clothes and shoes. The other day I was looking around in BHS for some new pyjamas and socks and the only ones I could find I liked had the word DAD plastered across them in huge letters. I hate the stereotypes they chuck at women as though we're all supposed to be like that. One thing that bugs me is how newsagents and supermarkets always always put Private Eye in the men's magazines next to Nuts and similar magazines. As though only men appreciate satire and politics.

Several male artists don't evolve artistically. Rolling Stones is an example. I'm sure people only pay insane amounts of money to listen to their old songs. No one critique them their wrinkles, or Lemmy from Motörhead for his disgusting warts.


That's it isn't? They never rag on about the men looking old in the world of rock but women get stick. When magazines talk about women they always go on about their looks, their body size and their age. Do you ever see that about men in music magazines? No. You don't see them banging on about some rocker's waistline.

Assuming direct control...

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Phlizz


Member

Posted Thu May 29th, 2008 9:47pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I'm not a feminist by any means but I totally agree with you. You make some wise and very true comments.

I hate the stereotypes they chuck at women as though we're all supposed to be like that. One thing that bugs me is how newsagents and supermarkets always always put Private Eye in the men's magazines next to Nuts and similar magazines. As though only men appreciate satire and politics.

How true. I read lots of things, 'women's' magazines included. But just because I do, it doesn't mean that I don't want to read the Eye (etc) and neither do I want to have to stare at pairs of boobs when I go to buy it.

Women do sometimes have the raw deal, but many sections of society feel that they are the ones who are being given unfair treatment, whether due to religion, status, level of education etc. I suppose we just have to be grateful to the women out there who we can look up to - everyone from Emile Pankhurst to Jo Brand - and hope that one day women are recognised for being unique individuals, some of whom are born to be 'Jordan' and some of whom are born to be 'Margaret Thatcher' and we all deserve to be respected

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thorleyc2


Member

Posted Fri May 30th, 2008 12:21am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I agree with Amyl Nitrates comment about womens magazines putting pressure on women to be thin. I wouldn't agree though that there are'nt the same pressures on men. For men theres a pressure to be very musclely like the people we see on the front of mens health magazines. I think generally speaking men care less than women about there appearance.

I don't see what rationale there is for men being better than women. Women are more intellegent, men are more violent, all wars were started by men, women are more complex etc etc. The only reason men are prejudiced towards women is because they are stronger and more outspoken so they think they can push women around without fear of retaliation.

I think its the case with race and sexuality the ones who are the most prejudiced tend to be the inferior ones imo (i.e white hetrosexual men like me ).

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nongenderous


Member

Posted Fri May 30th, 2008 1:13am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
What's wrong about being a feminist? I just don't understand the I'm not a feminist but... comments, Phlizz. But I respect your choice.
The reason women are allowed to vote, have the right to abortion (in several countries) and make their voices heard is because of feminists and suffragettes long hard work which isn't in any way completed. Yes, I want to be associated with someone who have done something valuable and made my life easier. When I was a little girl, Norway had a female prime minister, and I thought that was the way it was supposed to be. When I was taught that it was the exception and not the rule, I was very shocked. I became aware of the different ways boys and girls were treated at school. I couldn't understand why the boys' names were on top of the list of names of the pupils in my class, and why girls were below. I still can't, when names can be written in alphabetical order. As I became older I became more aware, and now, at 25, I'm not going to sit and watch people being treated badly just because they are women. You mentioned a lot of other groups of people who doesn't feel they've been treated well, but there's also the combination of belonging to several minorities (though being a woman isn't being a minority), which makes the situation even worse.
The statistics for how women are treated worldwide is not pretty in any way. The western societies may have come far compared to other countries. Women get killed by their husbands in western countries. Women get raped. I'm just fucking sick of it all. Little boys rape little girls. Little girls are being turned into sex objects. Teenage boys rape middle aged women. The world is sick and I'm not going to not do anything. I really want to do something, and I feel so little compared to all the crimes that are committed towards women, because they are women. I'm privileged as a woman because I've been growing up in a rich country and have rights many women are denied. I can vote and have an abortion. We have rules against discrimination and a government who wants a more equal society and are trying to do something about it. I know I'm lucky, but despite changes, much is still the same in terms of i.e. what is considered a working accident. Hurting your back while helping an old lady get to bed is not considered a working accident. The terms of what is, are from a time when the majority of men worked in factories and they still haven't changed. Nurses are underpaid and overworked. Men and women still choose traditional work to some extent, and what is valued and not valued work can be read from the pay check.
Muslim women risk being sacked from their wok if they use hijab at work. People who doesn't have Norwegian name (or West European) risk not getting a job, despite having the education required and being much better qualified than Norwegian applicants to the same job. People who are doctors or engineers may end up cleaning public lavatories.
As you can see, it's not just women's rights I'm upset about. There's a lot of racism in Norway and it shows in polls of what people would vote had there been an election. Many Norwegians just think about themselves, their money and the gas prices and want to get rid of immigrants.

I just don't understand why anyone won't call themselves a feminist, esp. women.

I'm not feminist, but: http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2001/03/im_not_a_feminist_but
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Phlizz


Member

Posted Fri May 30th, 2008 7:30am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Ok ok. January Heart I apologise. I suppose I contradicted myself anyway didn't I throughout my post! As a linguist I should have known better than to use the word so broadly, but all I meant was that I don't support the idea that women are superior to men or that women *can* do absolutely everything (no more than men can). I didn't mean that I didn't support the liberation and the recognition of women everywhere (as I hope that the rest of my post showed). I apologise for abusing the word and using the word as it has come to be perceived, rather than what it actually means. Apologies, and I hop that I made some good points otherwise. *hides now*

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nongenderous


Member

Posted Fri May 30th, 2008 1:13pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
It's ok amd don't hide away. I appreciate your opinion. I understand what you are saying and I really don't want to scare anyone away or sound harsh, because I'm really not that kind of person (more the shyest girl in class type of person), but in my opinion feminism has nothing to do with women being in any way superior to men. I know men and women are different and want different things, but I all I want everyone to have the same possibilities and the same rights in life. That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Who people are shouldn't make it difficult to get a job or get recognized for the work they are doing. Skin color, religion, sex, background, sexuality shouldn't be the reason for not giving people a job, not sell them a house and make life difficult in everyday life.
It's exciting and interesting seeing things from a different point of view. In the end it's not what people decide to define themselves as that's important, but that people are aware of the differences that exist and that things may not be as they look on the surface.
Can I just end this post with a happy cheer and say that today it is 30 years ago since abortion became legal in Norway? There's always something to celebrate My last posts have been very negative, so I'll cheer up this last post a bit. It's fun to discuss with someone and become challenged.
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Britannicus


Member

Posted Fri May 30th, 2008 7:09pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Good thing to remember – there are different types of feminism. Equity feminism is the most widespread type of feminism, even though due to confusion over what feminism is, bad media representation, etc., people will often deny that they are “feminist”. Equity feminism is just that idea that there should be equal treatment between men and women, that women should not be considered property of their husbands (including women’s rights to own land, inherit, etc.), women’s right to vote, protection in the workplace, and so on. This is the “original” feminism – going from a US historical perspective, at least (what I know most of, sorry). Ideas over time have changed, producing other branches of feminism, but this is still the dominate idea. It’s become so ingrained that we’d rather think of these as “normal ideas”, even though even a century or two ago, they most certainly were not. By this alone, most people today are, in fact, feminist. Some other types of feminism (which I’m not very familiar with) include gender feminism (oversimplified definition – the abolishment of traditional sex roles) and victim feminism (women are victims, should be preferentially treated, again oversimplified). Sometimes these two branches are combined. And there are many other kinds too. But again, I’m not terribly familiar with them.

"Your room...it's CLEAN!!!"
"I prayed to God...and...it happened...but...where's my million dollars and horse!? Damn it!"

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Fri May 30th, 2008 8:24pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Other types of feminism include radical feminism (the ones who believe in female superiority and don't associate with men), liberal feminism (believe in policy change in helping bring equality) and there's also marxism/socialism feminism (which theorises that inequalities are for the benefit of capitalism).

Being a feminist is nothing to be ashmed of. I really hate the "I'm not a feminist but..." thing.


Can I just end this post with a happy cheer and say that today it is 30 years ago since abortion became legal in Norway? There's always something to celebrate My last posts have been very negative, so I'll cheer up this last post a bit. It's fun to discuss with someone and become challenged.

Add to the celebration the battle was won last week in the UK with abortion rights not being chopped or damaged.

Assuming direct control...

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Phlizz


Member

Posted Sat May 31st, 2008 7:28am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Being a feminist is nothing to be ashmed of. I really hate the "I'm not a feminist but..." thing.

Amyl I'm sorry - I did already apologise *cries* Would it just be easier if I deleted my first post? It was all junk anyway. I feel like everyone's going to hate me if I don't.

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Sat May 31st, 2008 8:06am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Being a feminist is nothing to be ashmed of. I really hate the "I'm not a feminist but..." thing.

Amyl I'm sorry - I did already apologise *cries* Would it just be easier if I deleted my first post? It was all junk anyway. I feel like everyone's going to hate me if I don't.

Oh no no no no no! I wasn't directing that at you! I was talking about people in general who say it. I don't hate you or your post. You don't have to delete your post there was nothing wrong with it. Dont' cry.

Assuming direct control...

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Britannicus


Member

Posted Sat May 31st, 2008 4:01pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Amyl I'm sorry - I did already apologise *cries* Would it just be easier if I deleted my first post? It was all junk anyway. I feel like everyone's going to hate me if I don't.

Phlizz no!! Your post was a good one, it was not junk, you made many good points. We just got all hooked up on how it's easy nowadays to mistake all feminism for some radical branch of man-hating whatever, or some extreme view of life that's always in the media. It was never meant to be an attack on you. I'm sorry Phlizz! :'(

"Your room...it's CLEAN!!!"
"I prayed to God...and...it happened...but...where's my million dollars and horse!? Damn it!"

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