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Phlizz


Member

Posted Sun Jun 1st, 2008 9:28am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Oh wow... ok. I'm sorry though for saying that in the first place. I suppose it just goes to prove how confusing it is to be a woman in a man's world! Thanks for being nice about it. I have learnt a lesson here!!

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Sun Jun 1st, 2008 7:46pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Yay we all be happy now. Group glomple!

Assuming direct control...

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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sun Jun 1st, 2008 9:36pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Being a feminist is nothing to be ashmed of. I really hate the "I'm not a feminist but..." thing.

Amyl I'm sorry - I did already apologise *cries* Would it just be easier if I deleted my first post? It was all junk anyway. I feel like everyone's going to hate me if I don't.

don't delete it! it's important, i think...to talk about why people feel a bit wary of the feminist tag.

i don't know a whole lot about the history, but i DO know that there were years when feminists groups suddenly became rather anti-gay...in that they did not want lesbians marching with them...for fear people would think all feminists were lesbians. and fear of cooties of course....i'm young, but have read about older queer women who got shut out.

these days no one likes to remember that of course. things have changed a lot since then, and you've got to forgive and forget i guess. i have problems sometimes with discussions about feminism because i feel like i'm really a boy, and some people see that as some sort of denial, and if i go out identifying myself as male, then i'm selling out or something. (does that make any sense? not asking y'all to agree or disagree, just wondering if you've noticed that kind of attitude...) but to ME it has nothing to do with whether or not i "like" women or "like" being a women in this culture...(i put like in quotes because i can't think of a better word...so it's not really the word i want....grr...) instead it has to do with a way that i very physically FEEL... and no one can really know this but me.

anyways...that was a long aside....(which ya'll will always have to bear many times, as i never discuss this much anywhere but here...because everyone here is more fabulous, of course) but...what i meant was, while i share the ideas of feminists, i sometimes feel uncomfortable when meeting with groups. unless it's some crazy pan-everybody super rainbow freakfest.

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Phlizz


Member

Posted Sun Jun 1st, 2008 9:59pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Well, I know why I said it. I know they're just trying to do their thing for women but I feel that people like Beyoncé give women a bad name with their extreme songs about how they don't like\need men\all men are pants but women are great etc. _That's_ what I don't like.

Banjo - Huzzah for crazy pan-everybody super rainbow freakfests!!!

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nongenderous


Member

Posted Sun Jun 1st, 2008 10:31pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Please, don't delete anything. I tend to go on and on, and when I believe I've written something very brief it's almost half a page, because I get very passionate when I realize I can express something I feel passionate about.
For a long time I tried to avoid discussions on forums, because I didn't trust myself. As I've gotten older I trust myself a little bit more, but not much. The forums are where I dare express myself and my opinions.
My last posts have been very feminist oriented, and the reason is that I watched a Swedish documentary about a feminist party; they're called Feministiskt initiativ, and I got very inspired, and it made me find feminist blogs and read. What provoked me was the way the media were treating members of this party and putting words in their mouths, and just commenting on disagreements in the party and blew everything out of proportion. The media loves to make big stories about women who are "enemies", and made it look as though they couldn't work together. Weird how that never seem to happen with male politicians. What was fascinating was the different views on feminism within the party. Making a political platform wasn't an easy task. Some of the members wanted F! (Feministiskt initiativ) to be more like a lobby group, while others wanted to be a political party. The documentary showed how difficult it is to form a political party "from scratch" in a world where the media is playing such a huge part.
Some of the members got harassed in the streets during the election campaign, and one of the members with Turkish background received death threats from racists.

I've considered myself a feminist for a long time, and I became aware of the different ways boys and girls were treated at an early age. I've never been a member of any feminist groups or organizations, and my views have changed over the years and become less black/white, and turned into some shade of grey.
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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 4:32pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Well, I know why I said it. I know they're just trying to do their thing for women but I feel that people like Beyoncé give women a bad name with their extreme songs about how they don't like\need men\all men are pants but women are great etc. _That's_ what I don't like.

Banjo - Huzzah for crazy pan-everybody super rainbow freakfests!!!

oh like...

"you cheated on me
you son of a bitch
my high heels on you
your face in a DITCH

ahhhhhaahhhhh!

you deserved to have your face ripped off by a jaguar
and i am the most super powerful diva in the WOHORLD ah"

*dance breakdown*
*potential drag queen material*

i made that up.

January-
i'm not on any forums but this one...so far i feel it's a good place to have open discussions. i'm especially happy to learn so much about what really goes on in other countries, from talking to people like you about it.

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Phlizz


Member

Posted Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 7:42pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
OMG Banjo - I'm wondering now if you're not actually Beyoncé in disguise...

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 7:43pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
[quote="banjo"]
i made that up.

Good thing you said I was going to ask. After the ticks song I don't know what's real anymore!

January-
i'm not on any forums but this one...so far i feel it's a good place to have open discussions. i'm especially happy to learn so much about what really goes on in other countries, from talking to people like you about it.

I only go on this forum now and sometimes imdb. I used to go on other forums but I grew worn down by the negativity of most people that go on these forums. People are so unpleasant, arrogant and bitchy on many forums. A lot of superiority complexes of some kind or another. I like it here because everyone's so nice and friendly and we can discuss things without descending into arguments and unpleasantness.

Assuming direct control...

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Maxx England


Member

Posted Fri Jun 13th, 2008 4:39pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I race motorcycles for fun. There has never been any anti female bias in my series, and we've had a (very) few women racing. A couple were actually OK on a bike, unfortunately a lot of the others weren't. I'm not proposing any reason for this, but that's how it pans out.

And I think the reason for women being under represented at the top of some activities is down to one simple reason: there aren't that many at the bottom of the scale either. Go to a music rehearsal room where bands start out, it's men, mostly young, some silverbacks too, and not a lot of women. So as time passes, not a lot make it to the top.

I think if it matters to anyone, male/female/undecided, that their gender is under represented in anything, well simply get off yer backside and make a difference. Get in there and get involved. I want to win races and that won't be easy because all the others out there want it too; if you want a thing you have to work at it and, sorry if it upsets, too many women think there should be special allowances.

It don't work like that on a track, and it don't work like that outside of fairy stories about "dynamic young businesswomen" either.

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Fri Jun 13th, 2008 5:23pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I think if it matters to anyone, male/female/undecided, that their gender is under represented in anything, well simply get off yer backside and make a difference. Get in there and get involved. I want to win races and that won't be easy because all the others out there want it too; if you want a thing you have to work at it and, sorry if it upsets, too many women think there should be special allowances.

It don't work like that on a track, and it don't work like that outside of fairy stories about "dynamic young businesswomen" either.

Fairy stories? Special allowances? What are you talking about?

I don't need to be told by anyone to work at anything. I'm working hard to achieve my goals and I'm sure other people here are doing likewise. I'd rather get on with it then go around telling other people what to do with themselves.

Assuming direct control...

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Maxx England


Member

Posted Mon Jun 16th, 2008 11:06am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Special allowances? I've seen responsible jobs go to women who couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time in preference to better men simply because of "quota-ism".

Yes, there's bad stuff out there where some women get a bad deal, but sometimes they don't get the result they want because, frankly, they simply aren't good enough. I just wish, forlornly, for the death of polictical rectitude and the rise of common sense.

Have a nice day y'all, I'm going to play guitar now. With a bunch of men.

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Mon Jun 16th, 2008 3:11pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
The key word being 'some'. There are a lot of men who can't do their job very well either yet they still get employed. It seems to be the way of the world regardless of sex. I see it time and again incompetant people getting employed over competant people. Some places in my town seem to specialise in employing people who don't even seem to know where they're working much less know anything about their job or what to do.

Assuming direct control...

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Mon Jun 16th, 2008 5:49pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
The key word being 'some'. There are a lot of men who can't do their job very well either yet they still get employed. It seems to be the way of the world regardless of sex. I see it time and again incompetant people getting employed over competant people. Some places in my town seem to specialise in employing people who don't even seem to know where they're working much less know anything about their job or what to do.

I totally agree and could give you an endless list of men who work in jobs they're certainly not qualified for and who make me wonder how they manage to dress in the right order and find their way to work each morning.

Special allowances? I've seen responsible jobs go to women who couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time in preference to better men simply because of "quota-ism".
You should ask yourself why those qutoas came into existence. Because women very often are not employed just because they're women. Take universities, for example. Women applying for professorships are still met with doubt and "arguments" like "oh no, what if she becomes pregnant. We're on the safer side with a man." That is why those quotas were necessary in the first place, to give talented and qualified women a fighting chance. The side-effect is that in some cases also lesser-qualified women get a job just to fulfill the quota. I can't change that, I'd rather we didn't need quotas. The mere fact that we still seem to need them is a disgrace for our 'modern' societies.

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Maxx England


Member

Posted Tue Jun 17th, 2008 11:51am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
The point about "what if she gets pregnant". Well, if you were running any enterprise that required the regular and continued attendance of staff, would you willingly employ anyone who was likely to be away from their job for prolonged periods? Although pregnancy is not in any way an illness, it still has the effect of removing an employee as effectively as any illness, injury, physical incapacity, isolation or prison sentence.

Disregard male/female, just look at it arithmetically. If someone has specialist knowledge or skills that cannot be duplicated by other members of staff and they are potentially unavailable, then they can, in a competitive business environment be regarded as as much of a liablility as someone with an illness or addiction or injury. There's no deliberate anti feminist stance with this, it's just cold hard business.

I don't think you can have it both ways; it is an unfortunate penalty of being able to carry life, the greatest of all riches, that women will be viewed as a less reliable workers than men who merely have to be there to help start the process. And sometimes not even then.

And I still object to quotas; if the percentage isn't there at the base level in any enterprise or art form and there is no discrimination causing this, then it is down to the individual to achieve success.

One final point, and I do hope it doesn't apply to anyone here, sometimes a person's popularity and social skills will affect their progress; we have all met men and women who do not have these attributes and they will often blame an external cause for stasis rather than looking inwards to address any problems they have or cause. I surmise a very great deal of lack of success or progress falls to this; unquantifiable, of course, but it's a factor we should not overlook.

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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wildfire


Member

Posted Tue Jun 17th, 2008 1:19pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
it depends what assumptions you start from, Maxx.

Businesses exist as entities with legal rights and protections because parliament voted them into existence. They can't choose which bits of the law they should follow. If we didn't have women able to give birth and return to employment, our society wouldn't function as well.

eg. A manufacturing plant could save a bunch of money, turn round products at greater speed... if it didn't have to buy grilles and guards and interlock systems to protect its employees ... but then some employees would be involved in preventable accidents and end up costing the state elsewhere.

The aim of law is to create the conditions for an equitable society, while leaving the implementation details to businesses and individuals. The best way to spread the costs that follow from having a society that people would want to live in - such as a degree of maternity leave and employee welfare - are to require equal standards from all businesses.

Everyone has to meet a minimum standard regarding the safety of equipment , and there are statutory requirements about maternity leave - so that it costs your business the same to employ a woman as any other and the differential between you and your competitors then disappears.

If you're saying that a business is viable, except that it can't afford to employ women due to maternity leave, then in fact that's not a viable business...

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