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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Wed Jun 18th, 2008 3:25pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I believe in people before profit. I don't care about 'cold hard business' I care about equality and inclusion. To me it's wrong to discriminate against someone based on their ability to carry and give life [just as equally it is wrong to discriminate against someone based on their ethnicity, age, religion, disability or sexuality]. For one thing you're being bloody judgemental if you think all women even want to and are going to use that ability. Even if a woman does she can still be a bloody hard worker and I've seen a fair few women who work right until their due date and come back three months later. In order to become a more progressive society we need to care more about the people in it and treat each other with respect and be more inclusive.

Assuming direct control...

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Maxx England


Member

Posted Thu Jun 19th, 2008 9:12pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I'm not judgemental, I'm just an old bloke who sees that the world is an imperfect place. We all have to get the best deal for ourselves; people before profit is fine, but the only logical alternative to a profitable business is one that makes a loss and those don't last long without external support.

And yes, there are many women who don't choose to have kids, but what guarantees are there they won't change their minds?

I'm just saying that there are reasons for resistance to placing women in positions where their absence is detrimental to the enterprise taking place. Make a note of this: I make no judgements and adopt no position, I only illuminate a perspective. You have to deal with the world, but please, let the other party in anything have their say. And consider, despite your being female, they may actually be in the right and you are in the wrong. An unthinkable heresy, I know, but consider it.

Here endeth my participation in this thread, I'm off to make my way in a world that is supposed to have anti ageist legislation. Think that'll matter?

If I want anything, I'm going to have to get visibly good at it. That's how it works. Have a nice day y'all.

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Thu Jun 19th, 2008 9:59pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)


If I want anything, I'm going to have to get visibly good at it. That's how it works. Have a nice day y'all.

BRITISH PEOPLE SAY Y'ALL???



or are you from birmingham alabama???


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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Fri Jun 20th, 2008 9:30am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
And yes, there are many women who don't choose to have kids, but what guarantees are there they won't change their minds?

So what? It's still wrong to discriminate based on the sex of someone despite the reasons you gave earlier. They do not justify discrimination and prejudice in the workplace or any other environment.

You say you're not being judgemental yet you post insulting sentences like this:

And consider, despite your being female, they may actually be in the right and you are in the wrong. An unthinkable heresy, I know, but consider it.

...implying that women believe they're right and everyone else is wrong. Whether you meant to or not that's how it looks. That is not what Feminism is about, it's about equality for all and it's not just about women's rights and issues but men's as well.

I'm not judgemental, I'm just an old bloke who sees that the world is an imperfect place. We all have to get the best deal for ourselves; people before profit is fine, but the only logical alternative to a profitable business is one that makes a loss and those don't last long without external support.

It still doesn't mean it's right and that was what my point was. Not what is but what should be and that's equality not superiority. The fact is we've made progress towards equality in some countries and we're still working towards that goal. There are still various issues that go unresolved and the fact that they exist is not an excuse to let them carry on. We need to look towards making a better future not carrying on with crap simply because it's how it's always been done.

Assuming direct control...

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wildfire


Member

Posted Fri Jun 20th, 2008 10:19am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
If no business ever hired women, we would guarantee ourselves 50% unemployment in this country, but on paper our businesses would look more efficient because they wouldn't have to pay maternity leave, etc.

well we don't want to have `more efficient' business operating in a smaller economy, because Britain would be much poorer and less economically active overall, if women couldn't get or return to jobs. It took world war II and a drop in the number of working men to force that point home.

I could try to justify a prejudice by saying:

If everyone else allows opportunities to women, then I think I might be able to make a small financial gain by not employing women here: they can go elsewhere and I can shirk some of my social responsibilities and save a few thousand pounds on waves, in the bigger economy that's facilitated by everyone else more or less sticking to the rules.

but It's not OK to justify a prejudice like that, because those attitudes deny opportunities to other people who I've never met, and if everyone held those beliefs we'd all be poorer for it.

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nongenderous


Member

Posted Fri Jun 20th, 2008 1:30pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Not employing women? Why? Because money is more important than people? Everyone should be allowed to work if they want. Sex or gender (religion, skin colour, etc.) shouldn't matter in the workplace. I'm just thinking about how people would react if you replaced the word "women" with "black people". You wouldn't get away with it. Not every woman wants a goddamn child. Am I not going to get a job because I "might" change my mind. That's discrimination of the worst kind, and I can't believe you're saying this.

This is one of the reasons why I hate the hetero normative society; people are getting labels and get stuck in little, tiny squared boxes of the stereotypes. My biological sex is woman, but I'm much more and I do not fit the stereotype of a "typical" woman. I'd rather not get stuck in a box and get a lesser chance to get a job because I happen to have a vagina and not a penis between my legs. I shouldn't matter, but judging from your views there's still a long, long way to go before we have anything which can call equality.

There's nothing that can justify sexism. Not even the glorious cash you seem to care more about than people. And for your information; I live in the real world as well, but at least I manage to not justify what's unfair and wrong in our society. Things changes; they always have and always will be changing. Hopefully for the better.
I'm not going to accept that the world is unfair, but you don't have to live your life as a woman I believe your opinions reflects that. Maybe you would've thought different if you were a woman who couldn't get a job because she wasn't born as a man, and weren't given the rights you take for granted. Some had to fight for the rights. They weren't given to them at birth.

A random note; this summer I'm working in a factory, and the trousers I wear are not in my size, because work clothes seem to be only made for men. It was the same in the factory were I worked the last two summer (2006 and 2007). Women have worked in factories since the industrial revolution.

The thread title was inspired by Neneh Cherry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0W212af1uk
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nongenderous


Member

Posted Fri Jun 20th, 2008 7:54pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
An article from my own country (in English):
http://kilden.forskningsradet.no/c17224/artikkel/vis.html?tid=39289

An example of such a female career in the public sector is that of the nurse. – A nurse reaches the top of the salary ladder after 10-15 years of work, while an engineer can continue to climb up the salary scales, Grini says. There is little direct discrimination between men and women in the same occupations. Also hiding behind the average figure is an increase in the difference in wages between women.

A nurse and an engineer both study for three years. The nurse sometimes studies for more than three years because of specialization in a certain field.

My sister is studying to become a nurse, but despite having studied just as many years (sometimes more) as an engineer, she'll have to work part time. Not because she wants to, but because it is almost impossible to get a full time job as a nurse. Some of my friends from high school are nurses and they are in this situation. It's not fair and I wish they'd get paid better because of the important job they are doing.
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nongenderous


Member

Posted Sat Jun 21st, 2008 1:13pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I am reading in a Norwegian paper (it's on paper, so I haven't got a link. I'll post a link if it gets published on the internet) about a woman who at 26, who had six years of education, couldn't get a job because she was pregnant. She was perfect for the job until she told them she was pregnant. No one would hire her. She gets 1/10 in economic support of what she would have got if she'd been employed before she got pregnant. That's because what she would have earned is estimating how much she would have got in economical support.
At the same time women are being told that they have to give birth earlier, because the average age of women who give birth for the first time have changed from 26 in 1975, to 30,3 in 2007 (in Norway). It makes me want to bash my head against the wall. Several young women choose abortion, because they haven't got the economy to raise a child, and having studied and completed an education doesn't get rewarded, but create more complications in the bureaucratic systems. That's the "reward" several young women get for giving life in the welfare state.

Edit: here's the link: http://www.dagbladet.no/magasinet/2008/06/21/538746.html

This link is related to the article, but it's only in Norwegian:
http://www.ldo.no/no/TopMenu/Aktuelt/Forside/Kraft.....-gravide-/

How to prevent discrimination of pregnant women:
http://www.ldo.no/en-gb/Gender/Family/Measures-to-.....ant-women/
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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Sat Jun 21st, 2008 2:41pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)


My sister is studying to become a nurse, but despite having studied just as many years (sometimes more) as an engineer, she'll have to work part time. Not because she wants to, but because it is almost impossible to get a full time job as a nurse. Some of my friends from high school are nurses and they are in this situation. It's not fair and I wish they'd get paid better because of the important job they are doing.

they can move here! we always need nurses.

i think it's because we're always saying, "Hey, Watch This!!"


crash.

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nongenderous


Member

Posted Sat Jun 21st, 2008 5:49pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
they can move here! we always need nurses.

But we need the nurses. That's the paradox. There's a need for them, esp. connected to the fact that the people from baby boom generation are reaching retirement age, and because people live longer. There's a lack of people in the health sector, and many people choose not to work in the health sector as nurses and care assistants because there's so much part time and the job isn't paid as well as it should be. The part time isn't logical at all, but I believe it is related to the employer tax (I'm not sure if that's the correct word, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say) that the employer has to pay. That's why a lot of them end of working part time or mostly part time. The majority of hospitals in Norway are state owned, but it's up to each hospital how they choose to spend the money on their budget.
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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Sat Jun 21st, 2008 6:26pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)


If I want anything, I'm going to have to get visibly good at it. That's how it works. Have a nice day y'all.

BRITISH PEOPLE SAY Y'ALL???



or are you from birmingham alabama???


Haha, that's what I was going to say, but you beat me to it. If you really want funny you should hear my dad and granddad say y'all with Liverpool accents.

Anyway, Y'ALL have had the "old bloke" perspective and as a younger bloke I will tell you that I share Amyl's view with regard to all of this stuff. It's just ridiculous to me that in this day and age we still can't seem to get it right. I'm male, I work from home, and I stay at home with our twins while my wife is at work. My wife was in court working 2 days before the birth of our sons, and returned fully, 3 weeks after. There was no financial loss to ANYONE, and nobody was inconvenienced in any way. The "old bloke" perspective is dying a death Amyl, just hang on, we'll get it straight.

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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joan


Member

Posted Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 12:37pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
I grew up in post-war Britain thinking women ruled. This was because Mum was boss in the family, Dad was far too easy-going to mind, we had all women teachersat junior school..... Then I went to Heckmondwike grammar school, which had a big 'equality' ethic without making an issue of it - gender equality was just a given. Later I got a civil service job - again, gender equality was normal.

Then - we moved to this part of the world and the horrid facts of mysogyny hit me. I got a job as a raw materials purchasing officer for a big NZ manufacturing company, and was shocked to find it was regarded as weird for a woman to do that job, even though i had been brought up to be a good buyer - trained by my Mum to recognise value etc.

One day a rep called into my office, looked straight at me, muttered "Oh, no ones's here" and buggered off. He came back all apologetic about two minutes later. There were loads more such moments, but I never gave in. I did find out much later that my Yorkshire accent made me sound tougher than I really was.

I guess I'm a feminist - dyed in the wool so to speak - but this is because I don't know how to be anything else, nor would I be. I ended up married with two sons: my husband taught them both to cook and housekeep....Girls love them!.

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amyl_nitrate


Member

Posted Wed Jun 25th, 2008 10:15am Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)

Anyway, Y'ALL have had the "old bloke" perspective and as a younger bloke I will tell you that I share Amyl's view with regard to all of this stuff. It's just ridiculous to me that in this day and age we still can't seem to get it right. I'm male, I work from home, and I stay at home with our twins while my wife is at work. My wife was in court working 2 days before the birth of our sons, and returned fully, 3 weeks after. There was no financial loss to ANYONE, and nobody was inconvenienced in any way. The "old bloke" perspective is dying a death Amyl, just hang on, we'll get it straight.

Yeah fingers crossed. It's good that we live in an age where it's becoming more the norm for men to stay home with the children and women go out and work. Encouragment and respect for people's choices is what's needed not turning back the clock to darker times when choices were limited or non-existant. More positive attitudes in our society to alternative family structures including those headed by same sex couples is what I'm hoping to see more of in the future.

Assuming direct control...

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Maxx England


Member

Posted Thu Jun 26th, 2008 3:36pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
Not employing women? Why? Because money is more important than people? Everyone should be allowed to work if they want. Sex or gender (religion, skin colour, etc.) shouldn't matter in the workplace. I'm just thinking about how people would react if you replaced the word "women" with "black people". You wouldn't get away with it. Not every woman wants a goddamn child. Am I not going to get a job because I "might" change my mind. That's discrimination of the worst kind, and I can't believe you're saying this.

This is one of the reasons why I hate the hetero normative society; people are getting labels and get stuck in little, tiny squared boxes of the stereotypes. My biological sex is woman, but I'm much more and I do not fit the stereotype of a "typical" woman. I'd rather not get stuck in a box and get a lesser chance to get a job because I happen to have a vagina and not a penis between my legs. I shouldn't matter, but judging from your views there's still a long, long way to go before we have anything which can call equality.

There's nothing that can justify sexism. Not even the glorious cash you seem to care more about than people. And for your information; I live in the real world as well, but at least I manage to not justify what's unfair and wrong in our society. Things changes; they always have and always will be changing. Hopefully for the better.
I'm not going to accept that the world is unfair, but you don't have to live your life as a woman I believe your opinions reflects that. Maybe you would've thought different if you were a woman who couldn't get a job because she wasn't born as a man, and weren't given the rights you take for granted. Some had to fight for the rights. They weren't given to them at birth.

A random note; this summer I'm working in a factory, and the trousers I wear are not in my size, because work clothes seem to be only made for men. It was the same in the factory were I worked the last two summer (2006 and 2007). Women have worked in factories since the industrial revolution.

The thread title was inspired by Neneh Cherry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0W212af1uk

You have done that most human of things: getting hold of the wrong end of the stick and beating the innocent over the head with it. Can you look back over my posts and find any approval of discrimination? No.

All I have done is throw light on the reasoning behind other peoples' actions, and you are getting a strop on with me because I've held the torch.

Go away and be aggressive towards someone else. I really don't care if you're black/white/male/female/athletic/disabled/straight/gay/spiral. My personal opinion is that many "discrimination cases" are the direct result of the "victim" getting up someone else's nose, not as one of the above list, but as a thoroughly unpleasant individual who chooses to focus on a convenient and fashionable excuse for not achieving what they want rather than evaluate what happened in a dispassionate manner and address those things they can change.

Discrimination? I live in a "deprived area", I've seen quite monstrous social discrimination, but I've also seen loads of people just plain approaching things the wrong way. Can you or anyone else here state, in front of all the witnesses reading this, that you have lived your life as a totally pure and blameless little saint? I'm not one and I'll bet you ain't either. [/i]

The only way is forward. Now where's the bar?

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TobiasMonk


Moderator

Posted Thu Jun 26th, 2008 5:06pm Post subject: Woman (in a man's world)
More positive attitudes...

It's beginning to sound as if we could use a little of that in here just now

I cannot be awake for nothing looks to me as it did before, Or else I am awake for the first time, and all before has been a mean sleep.
Walt Whitman

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