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Anonymous


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Posted Wed Feb 14th, 2007 11:53am Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
I have discovered writing whilst in hospital recently. As you see i'm addicted to it ! But I am also hungry for information and opinion for that kick-start into writing in realilty, or into it (As the case maybe). Another of my books would be HELP! Am I too clever GET ME OUTA HERE! This title I aquired whilst fighting this sometimes delightful and sometimes beastly disorder whilst in hospital . -> . Any thoughts or opinions or indeed personal stories most wellcome.
Thanks
Harriet[/P.s I seem to have become a poet too!

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AxmxZ


Moderator

Posted Wed Feb 14th, 2007 5:26pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
Yesterday on the bus I got an idea for a short story/novella about two students of history fo science who accidentally solve a murder mystery using forensic methods dating back to Edwardian times. I'll start working on an outline soon. Promises to be lots of fun to write.

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Anonymous


Unregistered

Posted Thu Feb 15th, 2007 1:58pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
good luck.Going to a writers group?

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Thu Feb 15th, 2007 2:15pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
Yesterday on the bus I got an idea for a short story/novella about two students of history fo science who accidentally solve a murder mystery using forensic methods dating back to Edwardian times. I'll start working on an outline soon. Promises to be lots of fun to write.

Sounds interesting. For quite some time now I've been playing with the idea of writing a historical novel but I haven´t had an idea for a plot yet. I have not even settled for a period yet, I´m just too much interested in many different periods and topics.
Anyway, good luck with your story.

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AxmxZ


Moderator

Posted Thu Feb 15th, 2007 3:49pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
Yesterday on the bus I got an idea for a short story/novella about two students of history fo science who accidentally solve a murder mystery using forensic methods dating back to Edwardian times. I'll start working on an outline soon. Promises to be lots of fun to write.

Sounds interesting. For quite some time now I've been playing with the idea of writing a historical novel but I haven´t had an idea for a plot yet. I have not even settled for a period yet, I´m just too much interested in many different periods and topics.
Anyway, good luck with your story.

What historical periods are you thinking of diving into?

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AxmxZ


Moderator

Posted Thu Feb 15th, 2007 3:53pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
good luck.Going to a writers group?

No, no time. Just sort of scribbling on the bus to and from work.

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Thu Feb 15th, 2007 7:56pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference

What historical periods are you thinking of diving into?

- The Middle Ages (my specialty): Anything between, say 800 and 1500, from court, monasteries, towns, villages or castles, monks, knights, kings and emperors, dukes and counts could serve as a setting or dramatis personae. Which is why this is so difficult.

- I´ve always had a great interest in English History, not only medieval but also from later periods, e.g. Restoration or Victorian England.

- Munich in 17th, 18th and 19th century is very interesting and could be a really cool stage for any story.

- I´m very interested in History of Music which could be combined with my other fields of interest. For example, a novel about Henry Purcell in Restoration London, or Mozart in Munich.

- Another idea: The foundation of the secret society of the Illuminati 1776 in Ingolstadt near Munich.

The reason why I just can´t settle for a topic seems to me to be that I`m apparently not too serious about really writing a novel at the moment. If I were really determined I figure I´d just sit down and start plotting.
I know about the difficulty of non-fictional writing. I´m currently writing a History of Christian orders and religious societies. That´s my third project in this field of writing for historically interested readers which I was hired for by publishing houses who don´t want boring academical drivel but grippingly narrated history. And that´s exactly what I want to achieve: Gripping history (in touch with the state of research) without being trite or banal but reader-friendly. But though I have a large experience in this field of writing now I know that to write fiction is a completely different art. And since I know about the difficulties and agonies of writer´s block in my 'normal' work, maybe this is why I just haven´t really made up my mind about a novel yet.

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AxmxZ


Moderator

Posted Thu Feb 15th, 2007 8:23pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
Huh. The Illuminati and Christian societies, eh... You know, I find myself in need of a society like that for my novel. It'll be fictional, of course, but what I'd like is a sort of British society for furthering knowledge who take as their devise Francis Bacon and the scientific method but have some sort of a religious origin and ties to the Papal Inquisition, either historical ties or philosophical ones, or both.

What I need to emerge from this is a society that's sort of a religio-scientific order dedicated to finding out the truth. They could throw their weight behind formulation of scientific theories or behind extracting the truth from actual persons, but it'd always be about researching and refining processes of systematic interrogation, be that interrogation of nature or of man.

Now, what I *don't* want to do is pull a Dan Brown by using some real religious order or organization, willfully misrepresenting and perverting historical facts for fun and profit, and then acting as though all were right with the world. I want a thoroughly fictional society. However, to write a realistic fake society I need info on real secret knowledge societies, like the Illuminati, and real monastic orders, so for to make a plausible and entertaining amalgam of the two. A sort of "let's suppose that not all Dominicans quit the Inquisition business when told to do so".

So I might end up asking you for input. Is that cool?

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Sat Feb 17th, 2007 5:30pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
ok, let´s play with a few possibilites


- In 'creating' a society I´d first create a charismatic founder or leader. Someone who came in contact with many traditions and subsequently formed his own philosophy. Such a person could have been influenced by Roger Bacon and Francis Bacon alike. He could be a former Dominican monk. Dominicans are not only famous as the "Domini canes" during the Inquisition but also for their great erudition, intellect and knowledge.

-you could also go back to the 13th century. There are only a few reported cases of trials of the Inquisition on the British isles, yet there were Dominican cloisters in England, the oldest of them in Oxford. The Dominicans / Blackfriars are headed by the Master of the Order who is elected by the general chapter which again is elected by provincial masters. Abbots normally were elected by the convent of monks but it was possible that they were appointed from other places or countries by the provincial master or higher. Thus it would be possible to appoint an abbot of an English Dominican convent who is, say, from Spain or France or Germany and would bring some experience / traditions / ideas regarding the Inquisition. This traditions could remain vivid in this cloister until it is, like most English cloisters, shut down during the reign of Henry VIII. One of the former monks (or the abbot himself), erudite, influenced by Roger Bacon and the Inquisition alike, could carry on and found his own secret society in seek of truth. This society could then have been newly inspired by Francis Bacon and his philosophy.

- Most monastic orders have a lay branch, the so called third order (the first order being the male monks, the second the female branch). Members of the Dominican third order are called tertiaries. It would be possible that one of these, being very erudite, aware of the Dominican role in the inquisition, founded such an organisation.

- The illuminati and freemasons wouldn´t work in my opinion, since their aim was the ethical improvement of themselves and mankind in general. They were not seeking for knowledge and truth. Thus my amalgam would be Dominican roots + belief in ratio, seek for truth, inspired by empirism à la Roger and Francis Bacon.
The secret society itself could be organised like a freemasons´ lodge with initiative rituals and things like an oath to never reveal any other members.

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AxmxZ


Moderator

Posted Wed Feb 21st, 2007 5:25pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference
Awesome. Precisely what I was thinking of. I dislike secret political societies on principle, since they're sort of overdone in conspiracy theory literature (all of their ambitions seem to converge on 'We shall rule the world, mwa hah hah!'). So thanks for confirming what I was hoping to hear: that Dominicans could be used. My best friend is writing a thesis on the connections between the Papal Inquisition, the Dominicans and Francis Bacon, namely, how the Inquisition method bled over into F.Bacon's udnerstanding of the scientific method. So they can potentially give me a lot of helpful materials.

Any books you can especially recommend on the subject of Dominicans, the Inquisition and Bacon? I just know that if I start looking in my university library, I'll find a hundred books on the subject, and I'm not allowed to check any of them out since I'm not an active student anymore. So I need to find one or two and buy them online...

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Gertrude Susanne


Member

Posted Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 8:25am Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference

What historical periods are you thinking of diving into?

- The Middle Ages (my specialty): Anything between, say 800 and 1500, from court, monasteries, towns, villages or castles, monks, knights, kings and emperors, dukes and counts could serve as a setting or dramatis personae. Which is why this is so difficult.



You may want to visit Paul Doherty´s website http://www.paulcdoherty.com/

I have read almost all Brother Athelstan and Hugh Corbett Murder Mysteries. They were absolutely gripping! And PD draws such a vivid picture of what life was like in 13th/14th century London.

Or perhaps Ellis Peters (Brother Cadfael)?

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 11:50am Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference

Any books you can especially recommend on the subject of Dominicans, the Inquisition and Bacon? I just know that if I start looking in my university library, I'll find a hundred books on the subject, and I'm not allowed to check any of them out since I'm not an active student anymore. So I need to find one or two and buy them online...

- I´d especially recommend Praedicatores Inquisitores, vol. 1: The Dominicans and the Medieval Inquisition. Acts of the 1st International Seminar on the Dominicans and the Inquisition (Rome: 23-25 février 2002) (= Dissertationes historicae 29), Rome 2004. A very useful collection of articles in English, German, French and Italian. Are you allowed to copy at your library? If you're interested I could post the table of content for you to decide what might be useful and what not.
- A short but very good synoptic view of the history of the Inquisition is Gerd SCHWERHOFF: Die Inquisition: Ketzerverfolgung in Mittelalter und Neuzeit (Beck'sche Reihe 2340: C.-H.-Beck-Wissen), München 2004. In German only.
- Older but still quoted is Bernhard HAMILTON: The Medieval Inquisition, New York 1981.

- Peter SEGL (Ed.): Die Anfänge der Inquisition im Mittelalter. Mit einem Ausblick auf das 20. Jahrhundert und einem Beitrag über religiöse Toleranz im nichtchristlichen Bereich, Köln 1993.

- Stefan ESDERS/ Thomas SCHARFF (Edd.): Eid und Wahrheitssuche: Studien zu rechtlichen Befragungstechniken in Mittelalter und früher Neuzeit, Frankfurt a. M. 1999. Haven't read it, but the title looks promising regarding the technique of inquisition. Especially the article by Thomas SCHARFF: Auf der Suche nach der 'Wahrheit’. Zur Befragung von verdächtigen Personen durch mittelalterliche Inquisitoren, in: ESDERS/ SCHARF (1999), p. 139-162.

I hope you can get those titles. The Schwerhoff book can be ordered via amazon. If the other titles are not avalaible for you to copy them I could copy them here and send them to you.

I'm not an expert on Bacon, so I guess your friend can provide you with better recommendations. She's into a very interesting topic, by the way. I wasn't aware that there is a link between dominican inquisitive methods and Bacon's scientific method. Fascinating!
The beauty of using Dominicans and the Inquisition is that you won't piss anybody off or discredit the order. The Dominicans today are very open about their dark and cruel past. The following statement by the German Dominicans was published in 2000:

"Deutsche Dominikaner waren nicht nur in die Inquisition verstrickt, sondern haben sich aktiv und umfangreich an ihr beteiligt. Historisch gesichert ist die Mitwirkung an bischöflichen Inquisitionen und an der römischen Inquisition.
Unabhängig von den vielleicht manchmal nachvollziehbaren historischen Gründen für die Mitwirkung erkennen wir heute die verheerenden Folgen dieses Tuns unserer Brüder. Wir empfinden dies als ein dunkles und bedrückendes Kapitel unserer Geschichte.
Dies gilt in gleicher Weise für die nachgewiesene Beteiligung des deutschen Dominikaners Heinrich Institoris an der Hexenverfolgung. Durch das Verfassen des „Hexenhammers“ unterstützte und förderte er die menschenverachtende Praxis der Hexenverfolgung.
Folter, Verstümmelung und Tötung haben unendliches Leid über zahllose Menschen gebracht; deutsche Dominikaner haben dazu, neben anderen, die Voraussetzung geschaffen. Die Geschichte dieser Opfer – namenlos und vergessen – können wir nicht ungeschehen machen. Wiedergutmachung ist unmöglich. Uns bleibt die Verpflichtung zur Erinnerung.
Wir wissen, dass der Geist von Inquisition und Hexenverfolgung – Diskriminierung, Ausgrenzung und Vernichtung Andersdenkender – auch heute latent oder offen in Kirche und Gesellschaft, unter Christen und Nicht-Christen lebendig ist. Dem entgegenzutreten und sich für eine umfassende Respektierung der Rechte aller Menschen einzusetzen, ist unsere Verpflichtung, die wir Dominikaner den Opfern von Inquisition und Hexenverfolgung schulden.
Das Provinzkapitel fordert alle Brüder unserer Provinz auf, unsere dominikanische Beteiligung an Inquisition und Hexenverfolgung zum Thema in Predigt und Verkündigung zu machen." (http://www.dominikaner.de/geschichte/inquisition.htm)

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AxmxZ


Moderator

Posted Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 4:31pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference

- I´d especially recommend Praedicatores Inquisitores, vol. 1: The Dominicans and the Medieval Inquisition. Acts of the 1st International Seminar on the Dominicans and the Inquisition (Rome: 23-25 février 2002) (= Dissertationes historicae 29), Rome 2004. A very useful collection of articles in English, German, French and Italian. Are you allowed to copy at your library? If you're interested I could post the table of content for you to decide what might be useful and what not.

I'm allowed to copy, even if it does cost an arm and a leg... a table of contents would be highly useful. (This kind of stinks - I'm used to research through "carpet-bombing" as opposed to "smart-bombing", but I don't really have a choice anymore.) I hope none of the more useful articles will be in Italian... I don't know a lick of Italian...

- A short but very good synoptic view of the history of the Inquisition is Gerd SCHWERHOFF: Die Inquisition: Ketzerverfolgung in Mittelalter und Neuzeit (Beck'sche Reihe 2340: C.-H.-Beck-Wissen), München 2004. In German only.
- Older but still quoted is Bernhard HAMILTON: The Medieval Inquisition, New York 1981.

I'll probably have better luck getting a hold of (and making sense of at a reasonable pace) the second one. Is the German one mostly about the involvement of the German chapters or the entire order?

- Peter SEGL (Ed.): Die Anfänge der Inquisition im Mittelalter. Mit einem Ausblick auf das 20. Jahrhundert und einem Beitrag über religiöse Toleranz im nichtchristlichen Bereich, Köln 1993.

- Stefan ESDERS/ Thomas SCHARFF (Edd.): Eid und Wahrheitssuche: Studien zu rechtlichen Befragungstechniken in Mittelalter und früher Neuzeit, Frankfurt a. M. 1999. Haven't read it, but the title looks promising regarding the technique of inquisition. Especially the article by Thomas SCHARFF: Auf der Suche nach der 'Wahrheit’. Zur Befragung von verdächtigen Personen durch mittelalterliche Inquisitoren, in: ESDERS/ SCHARF (1999), p. 139-162.

I hope you can get those titles. The Schwerhoff book can be ordered via amazon. If the other titles are not avalaible for you to copy them I could copy them here and send them to you.


I'll try amazon first. It's amazing what one can find on it. I occasionally found listings for books there even my university library didn't have. I'm a bit wary of undertaking whole volumes of German academic prose, unfortunately - my German's barely good enough for day-to-day purposes, so academic writing will tax it to the limit, especially since I mostly have only time to read on the bus to work, which means reading without a dictionary... Maybe I should just quit work and enroll in grad school. Then I can do nothing but read for the next five to seven years and no one will bother me.

I'm not an expert on Bacon, so I guess your friend can provide you with better recommendations. She's into a very interesting topic, by the way. I wasn't aware that there is a link between dominican inquisitive methods and Bacon's scientific method. Fascinating!

I was terribly envious of her, actually, since her subject seemed so utterly original and exciting. I was writing my Bachelor's thesis on fingerprints as scientific evidence in the United States, and even though it went against the established opinions of the very limited scientific community concerned with the topic, it was hardly iconoclastic. Her subject, however, was right smack in the middle of the grand overraeaching Science v. Religion debate, which doesn't show signs of cooling off or growing irrelevant anytime soon. If someone wrote a book tracing how the scientific method originated within the Church, people will sit up and pay attention, I think. But so far the scope of the issue has proved prohibitive: the paper is now close to the size of a doctoral dissertation instead of a Bachelor's Thesis, and it's still unfinished.

The beauty of using Dominicans and the Inquisition is that you won't piss anybody off or discredit the order. The Dominicans today are very open about their dark and cruel past. The following statement by the German Dominicans was published in 2000:

"Deutsche Dominikaner waren nicht nur in die Inquisition verstrickt, sondern haben sich aktiv und umfangreich an ihr beteiligt. Historisch gesichert ist die Mitwirkung an bischöflichen Inquisitionen und an der römischen Inquisition.
Unabhängig von den vielleicht manchmal nachvollziehbaren historischen Gründen für die Mitwirkung erkennen wir heute die verheerenden Folgen dieses Tuns unserer Brüder. Wir empfinden dies als ein dunkles und bedrückendes Kapitel unserer Geschichte.
Dies gilt in gleicher Weise für die nachgewiesene Beteiligung des deutschen Dominikaners Heinrich Institoris an der Hexenverfolgung. Durch das Verfassen des „Hexenhammers“ unterstützte und förderte er die menschenverachtende Praxis der Hexenverfolgung.
Folter, Verstümmelung und Tötung haben unendliches Leid über zahllose Menschen gebracht; deutsche Dominikaner haben dazu, neben anderen, die Voraussetzung geschaffen. Die Geschichte dieser Opfer – namenlos und vergessen – können wir nicht ungeschehen machen. Wiedergutmachung ist unmöglich. Uns bleibt die Verpflichtung zur Erinnerung.
Wir wissen, dass der Geist von Inquisition und Hexenverfolgung – Diskriminierung, Ausgrenzung und Vernichtung Andersdenkender – auch heute latent oder offen in Kirche und Gesellschaft, unter Christen und Nicht-Christen lebendig ist. Dem entgegenzutreten und sich für eine umfassende Respektierung der Rechte aller Menschen einzusetzen, ist unsere Verpflichtung, die wir Dominikaner den Opfern von Inquisition und Hexenverfolgung schulden.
Das Provinzkapitel fordert alle Brüder unserer Provinz auf, unsere dominikanische Beteiligung an Inquisition und Hexenverfolgung zum Thema in Predigt und Verkündigung zu machen." (http://www.dominikaner.de/geschichte/inquisition.htm)

Wow, what a conscientious dude! The hounds of the Lord have grown rather cuddly and fluffy over the years, haven't they? The funny thing is, I had to hear so much from my friend about how utterly misrepresented the Inquisition is in pop culture, and how Umberto Eco mocked poor Bernard Gui in "Name of the Rose," and how the Papal Inquisition handed only very few people over several centuries to the secular arm (as if that somehow makes everything all right), and how mostly they just sentenced the heretics to some tours of the local shrine, which more often than not were located on healing water springs of some sort of other - a sort of paid vacation to a spa for the heretics.

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Soupy Twist


Member

Posted Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 9:38pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference

I'm allowed to copy, even if it does cost an arm and a leg... a table of contents would be highly useful.
Ok, table of contents of Praedicatores, Inquisitores:
1 Inquisitio Heretice Pravitatis". L'inquisition dominicaine dans le midi de la France aux XIIIe et XIVe siècles ou la première inquisition pontificale. / Albaret, Laurent - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

2 Frate Lanfranco da Bergamo, gli inquisitori, l'Ordine e la curia romana. / Benedetti, Maria - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

3 Bernard Gui, Sex and Luciferanism. / Biller, Peter - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

4 Gli inquisitori Raoul de Plassac e Pons de Parnac e l'inchiesta tolosana degli anni 1273-1280. / Bruschi, Caterina - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

5 Conclusions [Praedicatores Inquisitores 1: The Dominican and the Mediaeval Inquisition] / Bériou, Nicole - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

6 Il "tempus gratiae", i domenicani e il processo inquisitoriale. / Errera, Andrea - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

7 Los Dominicos y la inquisición medieval según la "Historia de la Santa Inquisición" (1589-1592) de V.J. Antist OP. / Esponera Cerdán, Alfonso - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

8 San Ramon de Penyafort y la Inquisición en la Alta Catalunya. / Galmés, Lorenzo - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

9 "Quis proprie hereticus est?" Nicolaus Eymerichs Häresiebegriff und dessen Anwendung auf die Juden / Heimann, Claudia - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

10 Dominican Inquisitors in Medieval Poland (14th-15th c.). / Kras, Pawel - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

11 Innocenz III., Honorius III. und die Anfänge der Inquisition. / Maleczek, Werner - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

12 Predicatori e inquisitori. Per l'avvio di una riflessione / Merlo, Grado Giovanni - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

13 Predicatori e inquisitori. Per l'avvio di una riflessione. / Merlo, Grado Giovanni - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

14 Les inquisiteurs martyrs de la France méridionale. / Montagnes, Bernard - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

15 "Summae inquisitorum" and the Art of Disputation: How the Early Dominican Order Trained its Inquisitors. / Mulchahey, Marian Michèle - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

16 L'inquisitore Florio da Vicenza. / Parmeggiani, Riccardo - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

17 Nicolás Eymerich, un inquisidor discutido. / Puig i Oliver, Jaume de - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

18 L'inquisizione e gli italo-greci. / Quaranta, Francesco - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

19 Die Inquisitoren und die Macht der Zeichen. Symbolische Kommunikation in der Praxis der mittelalterlichen dominikanischen Inquisition / Scharff, Thomas - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

20 Dominikaner und Inquisition im Heiligen Römischen Reich / Segl, Peter - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

21 How Henricus Institoris became inquisitor for Germany: The Origin of Summis Desiderantis Affectibus. / Senner, Walter - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

22 Dominican Inquisition in the Archdiocese of Mainz (1348-1520). / Springer, Klaus B. - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

23 Lorenzo Soleri da Sant'Agata OP (ob. ca. 1510): The "inquisitor cumanus" of the "Malleus Maleficarum". A Biographical Note. / Tavuzzi, Michael - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

24 Lay versus Clerical Perceptions of Heresy: Protests Against the Inquisition in Bologna, 1299. / Thompson, Augustin - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

25 Gli inquisitori e frate Giordano di Sassonia. / Viarengo, Giovanni - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

26 Papst Urban V. (1362-1370) und die dominikanische Inquisition. / Vones, Ludwig - In: Praedicatores Inquisitores 1 (2004)

I already checked, the book is available in Munich, so I could copy any article for you.

- A short but very good synoptic view of the history of the Inquisition is Gerd SCHWERHOFF: Die Inquisition: Ketzerverfolgung in Mittelalter und Neuzeit (Beck'sche Reihe 2340: C.-H.-Beck-Wissen), München 2004. In German only.
- Older but still quoted is Bernhard HAMILTON: The Medieval Inquisition, New York 1981.

I'll probably have better luck getting a hold of (and making sense of at a reasonable pace) the second one. Is the German one mostly about the involvement of the German chapters or the entire order?
The Schwerhoff book is about the entire order.

- Peter SEGL (Ed.): Die Anfänge der Inquisition im Mittelalter. Mit einem Ausblick auf das 20. Jahrhundert und einem Beitrag über religiöse Toleranz im nichtchristlichen Bereich, Köln 1993.
- Stefan ESDERS/ Thomas SCHARFF (Edd.): Eid und Wahrheitssuche: Studien zu rechtlichen Befragungstechniken in Mittelalter und früher Neuzeit, Frankfurt a. M. 1999. Haven't read it, but the title looks promising regarding the technique of inquisition. Especially the article by Thomas SCHARFF: Auf der Suche nach der 'Wahrheit’. Zur Befragung von verdächtigen Personen durch mittelalterliche Inquisitoren, in: ESDERS/ SCHARF (1999), p. 139-162.
I checked out both books, only German articles. But at a second glance the only relvant one is the one I already quoted by Thomas Scharff.
I'm sorry I'm not of greater help...:-|

Wow, what a conscientious dude! The hounds of the Lord have grown rather cuddly and fluffy over the years, haven't they?
I still wouldn't want to stroke and fondle one. Especially not the Spanish breed...

The funny thing is, I had to hear so much from my friend about how utterly misrepresented the Inquisition is in pop culture, and how Umberto Eco mocked poor Bernard Gui in "Name of the Rose," and how the Papal Inquisition handed only very few people over several centuries to the secular arm (as if that somehow makes everything all right), and how mostly they just sentenced the heretics to some tours of the local shrine, which more often than not were located on healing water springs of some sort of other - a sort of paid vacation to a spa for the heretics.

Of course it's important to differentiate and of course there was more than black and white and the Roman Inquisition and the Spanish Inquisition weren't the same. And you never can't speak of 'the church'. But even if you examined every single recorded case and came to the conclusion that very often it had been local authorities, lay persons etc. who were responsible for torturing and murdering people one couldn't deny that Institoris co-wrote the Malleus Maleficarum and that the inqusitive method was brought to perfection mainly by Dominicans who didn't wear their nickname for nothing and were extraordinarily involved into the whole business. Thus the conscientous words of today's Dominicans seem very justified to me.
When about 10 years ago the archive of the Roman Inquisition was opened to academics, the public was rather disappointed that the documents stored there are so boring and certainly not what they'd expected. The most famous documents are those of Galilei's trail, but mostly it's dull red tape stuff. But the professor responsible for the opening told me one could also find weird things there. There was an inquest of a 15th century Venetian merchant who wanted to hire two ottoman seamen. So he asked the Roman Inquisition if his eternal soul would be in danger if he employed two muslim men. The Inquisitors advised him that he should persuade the two men to get baptised and all would be well. The archive contains a lot of stuff like that.

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AxmxZ


Moderator

Posted Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 11:35pm Post subject: Writer or just writing?(M.a.D)-Making A Difference

I'm allowed to copy, even if it does cost an arm and a leg... a table of contents would be highly useful.
Ok, table of contents of Praedicatores, Inquisitores:

...

I already checked, the book is available in Munich, so I could copy any article for you.

I looked it up on the Uchicago catalog, and our library has it too. It'll probably make more sense for me to schlep over across town and copy the articles out myself than for you to take the trouble to get things to me from Germany. Thanks for the table of contents though - now I know what to look for when I get there. Time is precious when you can't check books out, and the more organized and pointed I can make my research the better.


I checked out both books, only German articles. But at a second glance the only relvant one is the one I already quoted by Thomas Scharff.
I'm sorry I'm not of greater help...:-|

Oh, you've been a great help! Mostly I just need impetus to reserve a weekend to make the trip to the library and some pointers on what to look for once I get there - there's no shortage of books about Dominicans and the Inquisition, after all.

Wow, what a conscientious dude! The hounds of the Lord have grown rather cuddly and fluffy over the years, haven't they?
I still wouldn't want to stroke and fondle one. Especially not the Spanish breed...

I don't even want to touch the Spanish breed. Too much of that Mel-Brooksian "The Inquisition, what a show" pop culture foolery about it. Plus, I think my friend was pretty adamant that the only Inquisition that influenced Bacon was the Papal/Episcopal one.


Of course it's important to differentiate and of course there was more than black and white and the Roman Inquisition and the Spanish Inquisition weren't the same. And you never can't speak of 'the church'. But even if you examined every single recorded case and came to the conclusion that very often it had been local authorities, lay persons etc. who were responsible for torturing and murdering people one couldn't deny that Institoris co-wrote the Malleus Maleficarum and that the inqusitive method was brought to perfection mainly by Dominicans who didn't wear their nickname for nothing and were extraordinarily involved into the whole business. Thus the conscientous words of today's Dominicans seem very justified to me.

Oh, no doubt. It's just sweet to see them own up to it when the Church was still wobbly on Galileo until a few years ago.

When about 10 years ago the archive of the Roman Inquisition was opened to academics, the public was rather disappointed that the documents stored there are so boring and certainly not what they'd expected. The most famous documents are those of Galilei's trail, but mostly it's dull red tape stuff. But the professor responsible for the opening told me one could also find weird things there. There was an inquest of a 15th century Venetian merchant who wanted to hire two ottoman seamen. So he asked the Roman Inquisition if his eternal soul would be in danger if he employed two muslim men. The Inquisitors advised him that he should persuade the two men to get baptised and all would be well. The archive contains a lot of stuff like that.

My friend told me the same thing and even read me excerpts. It's all either boring minute-taking, inter-departmental correspondence, mundane questioning about who was where, who said what about whom, where such and such people ended up, whom they recruited in what village - the kind of interrogations police or the intelligence agencies might have today with and about terrorists. And then punctuating the tedium, there'd be instances of collosal weirdness, like someone being questioned on having unnatural desires towards a chicken...

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